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Old September 25th, 2006   Astro@work is offline   #49
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Ok, taking this away from the Polly/Wonder Woman arguement for a moment...

So if Polly was WW in JSA, what about Earth 2 Diana? We saw her for a page in IC and Diana seemed to sort of, kind of, in a way recognize her. So, for the Post IC DCU, Polly was in the JSA. But Power Girl, Alan Scott & Jay all remember Diana E2? So do they have like 2 sets of memories or is like when you can't remember something real well. "I think Bobby was there for that, but maybe it was Jim" type thing? Just wondering.
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Geoff Johns made a comment recently to clear this up. Basically he said Power Girl is the only one who remembers Earth Two. This whole thing about everybody having multiple sets of memories is not the case, except for Power Girl. Therefore all the heroes we are reading about (JSA included) only remember Polly as the WW2 Wonder Woman.

I am in the camp who figured Diana would be inserted as the 1940's Wonder Woman, but I think there have been some strong arguments about why that wouldn't be great for the character even though it could work chronologically.
At least they reinstated Diana's early silver age history to regain her stature in the modern age (JLA founder) with some obvious tweaks (no early Diana Prince identity, no marriage to Steve Trevor).
 
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Old September 25th, 2006   Sk8maven is offline   #50
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As for Hippolyta being Wonder Woman and why she was never more than decoration during her time as Wonder Woman...I believe and Geoff or someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but her appearances in JSA were running close to her demise and they were told not to do too much her as she was slated to die. I may be wrong and this is all from memory.
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You are correct that the JSA team were told not to do too much with Hippolyta - in fact, they were told she needed to be handed back to the Wonder Woman team "for about a year" - but they were never told WHY. And they were not at all happy about it when they found out.

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Old September 26th, 2006   Captrose is offline   #51
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Geoff Johns made a comment recently to clear this up. Basically he said Power Girl is the only one who remembers Earth Two. This whole thing about everybody having multiple sets of memories is not the case, except for Power Girl. Therefore all the heroes we are reading about (JSA included) only remember Polly as the WW2 Wonder Woman.

I am in the camp who figured Diana would be inserted as the 1940's Wonder Woman, but I think there have been some strong arguments about why that wouldn't be great for the character even though it could work chronologically.
At least they reinstated Diana's early silver age history to regain her stature in the modern age (JLA founder) with some obvious tweaks (no early Diana Prince identity, no marriage to Steve Trevor).
ddf
Ah, thanks for the info. Leaves poor Kara with a bad headache I would think.
I think Diana could have worked in Golden Age as well. Kind of like Zarda in Squad Supreme (The original one). She marries Trevor after WW2 and goes into semi-retirement. Then something happens, maybe Trevor dies and she goes back to fighting crime and shows up at the formation of the JLA.
 
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Old September 26th, 2006   Anthem is offline   #52
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John Byrne did something like that in his Generations series for DC. WW married Steve, and was pregnant with their daughter (who is never called Fury) when he is lost flying an Air Force mission in the 50s. Active at that time is Wonder Girl, who is a self-motivating physical hologram of WW as a girl, thus duplicating the rationalization of Wonder Girl's original presence in the WW comic book under Kanigher.
 
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Old September 26th, 2006   stanbrown is offline   #53
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Actually, after COIE I was simply hoping they'd have said Diana entered Man's World during WWII. She's simply an immortal Amazon Princess and therefore doesn't age like average humans do.

Wonder Woman's history could've all happened in one single timeline without the time paradoxes and constant retconning.

She'd still be a member of the JSA and founding member of the JLA.

Fury would be her daughter again.

Donna would have her origin back.

She wouldn't need to have her age retconned like Superman and Batman.

Now I don't think Wonder Woman will ever be as popular as Superman and Batman, basically because from what I understand, female characters generally have a harder time selling than male characters in this day and age, but if she's to remain a viable character, her and her world have got to become a bit more accessible, IMO.
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This, basically, was the Wonder Woman history on the TV show. Since the ABC television series was set during World War II, but when CBS picked up the show, they wanted to do it as a contemporary spy-type show (more like the Bionic Woman), they opened with Diana, ageless, living on Paradise Island in the 1970s. It was made clear that at the end of World War II, she had returned to the island. She was there when Steve Trevor, Jr. (Lyle Waggoner continued as co-star, although now he was playing the son of Steve Trevor, who would have had to have been already born at the time of the first show), crashed there, unconscious, on a spy mission. The threat of international evil-genius terrorism convinced the Amazons it was time for Diana to return to Man's World. There was no indication that anyone particularly remembered the 1940s Diana Prince, so although Diana used that identity again, she never referred to the 1940s DP as a relative.

That was also the origin on the Super Friends. In the episode of the Super Friends where the Legion of Doom has somehow discovered the secret origins of Superman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman, and they travel through time to eliminate those heroes, they make it clear that Wonder Woman became Wonder Woman in 1942--they don't worry about it being the late 1970s and giving WW a 1940s career would seem to make her a senior citizen.
 
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Old September 26th, 2006   starman74 is offline   #54
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I love Polly in the JSA, having a Wonder Woman in the WWII era only seems right.
 
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Old September 27th, 2006   Heatwave the Rogue is offline   #55
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It's really funny how many of the same fans who howl that "Wonder Woman should be Diana and no one else!" are fully accepting of the retcon that made the Silver/Bronze/Modern Age Black Canary a completely separate person from the Golden Age one (and incidentally eliminated a horrible Mopee-class retcon that made her nothing but a vessel for her mother's memories - eeeuuuwww!!!).

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I have no strong opinion on the Wonder Woman situation, but I always liked that Black Canary story. Sure it was a bit convoluted, but until that story, Black Canary always floated under my radar and that one broke her out of the background for me.. Mopee-class? Not as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Old September 27th, 2006   CoMike Norris is offline   #56
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IC was a missed chance to retcon Diana as the Wonder Woman in the JLA and JSA. Sure it would have effed up the "holy scripture" that is the Perez version, but I for one wouldn't have minded. Plus it would make Diana a major player in the hero community (and we can't have that) with the sorta of respect that Jay and Alan get, added to her spot in the "Trinity". Can't have her be more experienced than Bats and Supes either.
Though powerless white jumpsuit Diana is back in continuity so who knows, so perhaps GA Diana can comeback too.
 
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Old September 27th, 2006   Mark MacMillan is offline   #57
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This, basically, was the Wonder Woman history on the TV show. Since the ABC television series was set during World War II, but when CBS picked up the show, they wanted to do it as a contemporary spy-type show (more like the Bionic Woman), they opened with Diana, ageless, living on Paradise Island in the 1970s. It was made clear that at the end of World War II, she had returned to the island. She was there when Steve Trevor, Jr. (Lyle Waggoner continued as co-star, although now he was playing the son of Steve Trevor, who would have had to have been already born at the time of the first show), crashed there, unconscious, on a spy mission. The threat of international evil-genius terrorism convinced the Amazons it was time for Diana to return to Man's World. There was no indication that anyone particularly remembered the 1940s Diana Prince, so although Diana used that identity again, she never referred to the 1940s DP as a relative.

That was also the origin on the Super Friends. In the episode of the Super Friends where the Legion of Doom has somehow discovered the secret origins of Superman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman, and they travel through time to eliminate those heroes, they make it clear that Wonder Woman became Wonder Woman in 1942--they don't worry about it being the late 1970s and giving WW a 1940s career would seem to make her a senior citizen.
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But if she doesn't age, because she's an immortal Amazon, she wouldn't look like a senior citizen.
 
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Old September 27th, 2006   Sentinel is offline   #58
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What a shame. This was a perfect opportunity to undo a terrible mistake, ie, retconning Hippolyta into the Golden Age wonder Woman. Thus elevating her above Diana. A terrible mistake. And a real blow to the unique quality of this character. I hope this can still be undone. Please rethink this Geoff. Diana should be THE Wonder Woman.

There's a reason why Jor-El wasn't retconned into the GA Superman, and Thomas Wayne wasn't rewritten as the GA Batman. Wonder Woman should be in that league. Not retconned into a "daughter of" character. It damages this character tremendously.

Byrne's mistake should be undone.

Frankly, I never understood the Hippolyta love. She had no significant storyline; she mostly served as background color. She had a couple of lines here and there, and swung her sword a couple of times. But other than some great duds, there wasn't really much to write home about. I often think that people liked her better because they could project any personality they wanted onto her; any specificity.

I understand JSA fans-who never liked Wonder Woman-liking Hippy because of the JSA association. But as a Wonder Woman fan, I feel mortified. Sixty years of history down the drain. And one of the most important comics creations, and a feminist icon, reduced to a mother-daughter fight over identity. Yuck.
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I have yet to understand this non sensical idea that Hippolyta being the GA WW somehow "damages" Diana. The JSA had a hole in it a mile wide because of COIE, and Hippolyta filled it masterfully. This was one retcon that not only made sense, it was brilliant. What kind of "damage" is there? How do you quantify it? The simple answer is there isn't damage because it didn't happen. Jay Garrick doesn't "damage" Barry, Wally or Bart. Alan Scott doesn't "damage" Hal, John, Guy or Kyle. All SCU continuity went down the drain after COIE, yet Geoff restored a lot of Diana's after Inifinite Crisis. The mother-daughter fight over identity lasted only one story arc before Polly's death in Our Worlds At War. The real problem was that Hippolyta was eclipsing Diana because she was being written better than Diana. That's why she was killed off. I too am a Wonder Woman fan, having every issue from the WW2 issues featuring Diana Prince Trevor during the 70's up through #329 and every issue of last series and the current. Hippolyta as the Golden Age Wonder Woman works.
 
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Old September 27th, 2006   James Melanson is offline   #59
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It damages the Wonder Woman legacy. It damages the unique aspect of this character. If there were two Wonder Women, then there clearly is not anything particularly special or unique about her. There's one Superman and one Batman. Whole story arcs have been written to establish the fact that there can be only one true Batman and one true Superman. Wonder Woman should be in that league.

This character is the potential savior of humankind. She has a divine mission. She should be unique.

"Polly" cheapens this character. And it cheapens Hippolyta. Hippolyta is a supporting character with sixty years of history. She's not just an ersatz Diana. Yet that's what she's become. A shallow, superficial character used as WW costume filler, to flesh out a history done away with in Crisis. She's no longer the wise monarch who lovingly led her people, and guided her daughter. She's a clone of the pre-crisis WW, and a very poor substitute for her. Polly doesn't make sense. Anymore than it would make sense to use Jor-El as the WWII Superman, or Thomas Wayne as the WWII Batman.

Hippolyta made perfect sense pre-crisis. Post-crisis, she's a mess. A scheming, conniving egoist who sacrificed Artemis' life-a woman she considered a savage-for her own expedient purposes. She challenged her own daughter Diana-the one blessed by the gods with a divine mission-merely so that she could sew some wild oats. Vain, imperious, quick to temper and violence. That's not Hippolyta to me. And neither is she Wonder Woman. Hacking off people's arms with her sword; attacking the Bana Mighall Amazons, whom she considered her inferiors-that's not WW.

Wonder Woman as a kind of Xena sans Gabrielle might have made sense to Byrne. But to me, it was misguided at best. Particularly when it would have been just as easy to have Goddess of Truth Diana slip into the past from Olympus, to become the WWII WW herself. After all, she kept getting in trouble with the gods for helping people without waiting for them to pray to her. So it would have been perfect if she'd devised a way to help others outside the notice of the gods.

Polly is too much style and no substance. Too much fan projection onto a character who was pretty emptily written. Too much sword weilding Xena wanna-be. The Golden Age Wonder Woman was absolutely nothing like the "Polly" WW, and she can't be shoehorned into those old adventures. They are fundamentally different characters in every concievable way. The only thing they have in common is the name and the costume. And that's just not enough. Go back and read those splendid WW Archives-sorry, but that's NOT the Polly WW. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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Old September 27th, 2006   Kane_fan is offline   #60
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Under Bryne's tenure both Hippolyta and Donna lost their identities.

If There was an Earth-2 Superman (Kal El) and Batman (Bruce Wayne) than there was an Earth-2 Wonder Woman (Diana). There's no need for others to remember Hippolyta as the WWII Wonder Woman.

I can't see how Geoff would continue to support the charade.
 
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Old September 28th, 2006   Gremlin is offline   #61
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IC was a missed chance to retcon Diana as the Wonder Woman in the JLA and JSA. Sure it would have effed up the "holy scripture" that is the Perez version, but I for one wouldn't have minded. Plus it would make Diana a major player in the hero community (and we can't have that) with the sorta of respect that Jay and Alan get, added to her spot in the "Trinity". Can't have her be more experienced than Bats and Supes either.
Though powerless white jumpsuit Diana is back in continuity so who knows, so perhaps GA Diana can comeback too.
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I always thought this was the most logical and only workable solution, myself...

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Old September 28th, 2006   CoMike Norris is offline   #62
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Under Bryne's tenure both Hippolyta and Donna lost their identities.

If There was an Earth-2 Superman (Kal El) and Batman (Bruce Wayne) than there was an Earth-2 Wonder Woman (Diana). There's no need for others to remember Hippolyta as the WWII Wonder Woman.

I can't see how Geoff would continue to support the charade.
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From what I recall, Donna went from Kyle Rayner's powerless girl friend to being restored as a super-hero, Amazon and sister to Diana. She regained her identity. All pluses in my book. As for Hippolyta, it not the first time she was a "Wonder Queen".

From the characters perspective there was no Earth-2 and no counterparts to Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman they are aware of. The only WWII Wonder Woman they know is Hippolyta.
 
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Old September 28th, 2006   Captrose is offline   #63
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It damages the Wonder Woman legacy. It damages the unique aspect of this character. If there were two Wonder Women, then there clearly is not anything particularly special or unique about her. There's one Superman and one Batman. Whole story arcs have been written to establish the fact that there can be only one true Batman and one true Superman. Wonder Woman should be in that league.
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We have Kal-L and Earth 2 Batman back. Several people saw Kal-L fighting with Kal-El against Doomsday and Company. And Jakeem ran into Earth 2 Batman. Now mind, you I'm not calling you on all your points. Just pointing something out. (I'll never understand why a powerless Kal-L couldn't survive IC, but that's another post....)
You may say that no one remembers them or something to that effect. I would agree but to a point. Other than "Time's Past" type stories, does it matter now? I mean, we've had Kal-L & E2Bats in a JSA story. Polly is gone now. Six of one, half a dozen the other in my opinion.
 
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Old September 28th, 2006   Captrose is offline   #64
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John Byrne did something like that in his Generations series for DC. WW married Steve, and was pregnant with their daughter (who is never called Fury) when he is lost flying an Air Force mission in the 50s. Active at that time is Wonder Girl, who is a self-motivating physical hologram of WW as a girl, thus duplicating the rationalization of Wonder Girl's original presence in the WW comic book under Kanigher.
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I had forgotten about that. I rather enjoyed Generations, but by the third/last one, I think Byrne had run out of ideas. Interesting concept though...
 
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