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Old September 21st, 2006   DaVeO is offline   #17
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Oh and by the way, thanks for letting me walk around for years pretending to be my mom and with memories of having sex with my dad. You're a real pal.")
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Old September 21st, 2006   Gremlin is offline   #18
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Polly was a better Wonder Woman than Diana had become. And Jimenez (all due respect) handled the whole thing very badly, within the pages of WW's comic book...

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Old September 21st, 2006   BATELEUR is offline   #19
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Polly was a better Wonder Woman than Diana had become. And Jimenez (all due respect) handled the whole thing very badly, within the pages of WW's comic book...
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Old September 21st, 2006   CoMike Norris is offline   #20
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The only real hitch was that time travel angle - which was Byrne compounding a felony he had previously committed (killing off Diana). It was the best he could do at the time - and like the "Pocket Universe" patch applied to the Legion (by Paul Levitz over another Byrne destruction), it wasn't good enough.


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Didnt Byrne come up with the Pocket Universe? As I recall it was introduced in a crossover between Superman, Action and LSH.
 
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Old September 21st, 2006   James Melanson is offline   #21
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"Polly was a better Wonder Woman than Diana had become"

In what way? In the JSA book, Polly was barely there. She did virtually nothing.
 
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Old September 21st, 2006   Gremlin is offline   #22
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Must disagree, but now I am off from work...

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Old September 21st, 2006   James Melanson is offline   #23
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But-she didn't. She mostly stood in the background (in some lovely variations of the WW costume, I grant you). She uttered a few lines here and there, and brandished her sword once or twice. She was mostly a concept, not a real character. And background color.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   Mackaybear is offline   #24
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While I liked Hipolyta as WW I have to agree that except for one or two stories she really didn't do much. The Extant arc with half the team involved in the Search for Hawkman she did well.

And in the JLA arc "Crisis Times Five" she did good. Kept things going in the background. Mentored Huntress a bit.

But I thought the whole Hipolyta as the GA Wonder Woman kind of diluted the whole idea of WW and the Amazons as being "immortal". I've always thought it would be better to see WW as having been active with the JSA and showing up to help form the JLA. The GA experienced Heroine to help the "younger heroes" out so to speak. And at least to me it should be Diana in the GA. People do change over time. Experience in man's world and then back to her own people for a couple of decades would have changed and mellowed Diana quite a bit.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   Sk8maven is offline   #25
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But I thought the whole Hipolyta as the GA Wonder Woman kind of diluted the whole idea of WW and the Amazons as being "immortal". I've always thought it would be better to see WW as having been active with the JSA and showing up to help form the JLA. The GA experienced Heroine to help the "younger heroes" out so to speak.
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That boat got deliberately scuttled by DC after Crisis. They wanted the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you want. They wanted Diana to be this naive, fresh, dewy, wet-behind-the-ears novice whom the experienced heroes would have to show the ropes.

That it totally RUINED her characterization and was unsustainable beyond a very few years didn't seem to occur to them in the least.

The damage, however, has been done and probably can't be completely undone at this point. Diana's debut into "Man's World" can presumably be pushed back to the start of the Silver Age and the formation of the JLA...but I'm not sure it can be put back any farther without totally erasing and overwriting everything George Perez established about her. And I don't think DC wants to go there.

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Old September 22nd, 2006   CmdrJBond is offline   #26
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That boat got deliberately scuttled by DC after Crisis. They wanted the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you want. They wanted Diana to be this naive, fresh, dewy, wet-behind-the-ears novice whom the experienced heroes would have to show the ropes.

That it totally RUINED her characterization and was unsustainable beyond a very few years didn't seem to occur to them in the least.

The damage, however, has been done and probably can't be completely undone at this point. Diana's debut into "Man's World" can presumably be pushed back to the start of the Silver Age and the formation of the JLA...but I'm not sure it can be put back any farther without totally erasing and overwriting everything George Perez established about her. And I don't think DC wants to go there.

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I couldn't agree more. The idea of Wonder Woman as a Janie-Come-Lately was horrible, and really was one of the worst things to come out of the ground-up reboot. It really turned Wonder Woman into a second-tier character, which should NEVER have happened. While I think that a lot of the things that Perez did on the title were groundbreaking and certainly brought a lot to the character, I think this idea and the Hawkman debacle were the worst effects of the original Crisis.

I have to wonder how much backtracking we're actually going to see on this issue, both in WW's own title and in JLA, just to try re-establishing Diana as the preeminent heroine in the DCU.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   Peter Bardyn is offline   #27
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That boat got deliberately scuttled by DC after Crisis. They wanted the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you want. They wanted Diana to be this naive, fresh, dewy, wet-behind-the-ears novice whom the experienced heroes would have to show the ropes.
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That's quite an interpretation. It was my understanding that WW was rebooted, like with Superman, to make the character more accessible to new readers in the wake of CoIE. There was a lot of stuff, like "Judo master Diana" that might be a little hard to grasp for someone unfamiliar with the character's history.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   Mark MacMillan is offline   #28
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That boat got deliberately scuttled by DC after Crisis. They wanted the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you want. They wanted Diana to be this naive, fresh, dewy, wet-behind-the-ears novice whom the experienced heroes would have to show the ropes.

That it totally RUINED her characterization and was unsustainable beyond a very few years didn't seem to occur to them in the least.

The damage, however, has been done and probably can't be completely undone at this point. Diana's debut into "Man's World" can presumably be pushed back to the start of the Silver Age and the formation of the JLA...but I'm not sure it can be put back any farther without totally erasing and overwriting everything George Perez established about her. And I don't think DC wants to go there.

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Feh. There were some things he did that I liked, and somethings I didn't. Same goes for any new direction.

If it was me, the Amazons would be immortal as long as they stay on Paradise Island (kind of playing with the "one person's prison or another persons paradise?" question the concept asks).

I'd say the Amazons are veterans of many wars. They have battled Gods, the Spartans, and combatted mighty Persian armies. Until the day Aries turned on them and banished them forever on their island.

Watching how easily corrupted mankind is by the God of War over the centuries, the Amazons have no love for Man's World, and decide to remain hidden from the evils of man.

Until the global threat of WWII that is. With Aries chaos at full peak and Hitler's hands on the Spear of Destiny, the Amazons can no longer sit back and watch. They'd design a tournament, in order to determine their mightiest warrior, and bestow upon the worthy champion the power to leave Paradise Island to protect not only them but the world in its darkest day.

She'd fight with the JSA, and the free world against the Nazis. After the war, she'd decide to stay on Man's World, eventually marrying Steve Trevor, someone who she would have met and fallen in love with during the war.

She'd become an integral part of forming the U.N. and become Paradise Island's ambassador to the world.

She'd have a daughter with Steve, and live in semi-retirement as Wonder Woman, until she becomes a founding member of the JLA.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   reasonablefan1 is offline   #29
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There's a reason why Jor-El wasn't retconned into the GA Superman, and Thomas Wayne wasn't rewritten as the GA Batman. Wonder Woman should be in that league. Not retconned into a "daughter of" character. It damages this character tremendously.
. . .
But as a Wonder Woman fan, I feel mortified. Sixty years of history down the drain. And one of the most important comics creations, and a feminist icon, reduced to a mother-daughter fight over identity. Yuck.
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No matter how many times I've read it, this argument continues to elude me.

The in-universe history of these characters is largely irrelevant to a character's stature. Stature comes from the perception of the character by READERS and I would be very comfortable assertng that the Polly as WW retcon did not suddenly make scores of fans leap up and say, "I used think Diana was special and wonderful, but now that there is another Golden Age Wonder Woman, I think she's just another character." Actually, if even a single person had that reaction I'd be surprised.

The Jor-El and Thomas Wayne examples underscore just how much this situation is different. Both men are created-for-comics characters who as of the first appearance of their sons in costume were dead.

Diana was CREATED to be the daughter of a legend. Marston could have created an original character, but he chose not to. Instead, he reached out and pulled a character out of myth - a character who had a stature all her own. And he continued to have Hippolyta play an active role in Diana's life.

This retcon changes nothing that any fan perceives as they pick up today's comics. Diana is the DCU's Wonder Woman. She's the one in her own book. She's the one who is part of the trinity. She's the one in the JLA. She's the most powerful, the most respected, the most famous female hero.

None of that is changed by Polly being Wonder Woman - especially given that Polly is dead and we have no on-going series set in the WWII era.

One could certainly argue that it is much MORE of an achievement for the child of a legend to not only succeed in the same "field" but to surpass her parent's achievements and carve out a much, much greater legend for herself.

Besides, Polly as the GA WW is absolutely the only non-laughable explanation for Diana to be running around in the star-spangled bathing suit.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   Cousin Cory Springhorn is offline   #30
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I couldn't agree more. The idea of Wonder Woman as a Janie-Come-Lately was horrible, and really was one of the worst things to come out of the ground-up reboot. It really turned Wonder Woman into a second-tier character, which should NEVER have happened. While I think that a lot of the things that Perez did on the title were groundbreaking and certainly brought a lot to the character, I think this idea and the Hawkman debacle were the worst effects of the original Crisis.
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I don't think I agree, especially with the idea that Wonder Woman was turned into a second-tier character. As I recall, WW was clearly a second tier character at best in the years leading up to Crisis. Sales on her title were poor before Crisis, and int he early '80s, I'll bet almost as many of the people buying her comic were doing so for the Huntress back-ups as for the lead story... and by the end, even those were gone, and I believe the title was reduced to bi-monthly for the last year or two. WW was out of the Justice League when Vibe and company showed up, and while WW's book had frequent guest stars, you almost never saw her showing up in anyone else's book. By contrast, following Crisis, the Perez/Potter relaunch was huge, and though sales in subsequent years were inconsistent, there have been several periods of time when the book garnered a lot of attention, and Diana has been a major player in the DCU throughout. Now, you could argue that all of this would have been possible through a relaunch without the full reboot, but that's nothing more than speculation. The Perez/Potter pitch was the one DC went with, and it's hard to argue its success. (Incidentally, does anyone know whether the reboot was an editorial mandate from on high, or whether there were other pitches for the series, not including a reboot, that were considered and rejected?)
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   reasonablefan1 is offline   #31
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But as a Wonder Woman fan, I feel mortified. Sixty years of history down the drain. And one of the most important comics creations, and a feminist icon, reduced to a mother-daughter fight over identity. Yuck.
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There is another truth here worth looking at - Wonder Woman is not a simple character.

Batman and Superman - in concept - are very simple characters. They represent clear, easy to understand archtypes and philosophies. You can distill Batman and Superman into a couple of sentenes using words that (and this is the most important part) that have a meanings about which we can all agree . The same holds true for Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne. Sure there are nuances, but if I say "mild mannered", "reporter," "raised on a farm in Kansas" - those things create immediate and commonly-understood perceptions.

Marston was going for something different. He wasn't trying to embody an a core archtype. He was trying to make a far more complicated statement. He was offering his own, at times contradictory and at times subversive, view of womanhood.

And in order to make that view more palatable, he wrapped in a packaging (the American flag) that would resonate with the public at the time. But while that was a smart short-term decision, it only added layers of complication. It is not a coincidence that none of the post-Golden Age analogues for Wonder Woman (i.e. Power Princess, Thundra, Promethea) have embraced the partriotic trappings of the character.

Wonder Woman was the expression of "womanhood" is complicated because there is no consensus on what that word means. Honestly, it is in any wonder (no pun intended) that the character has morphed so much over the last 60 years given the cultural struggles during that time? Society in general, and women in particular, have struggled balancing traditional notions & progress, equality & femininity.

There is no singular character named "Diana." There is no singular character named "Wonder Woman." Over the years, these characters have passed through the hands of hundreds of writers and artists and there are a variety of different and legitimate interpretations - each of which has its adherents and detractors.

Superman, by contrast, has had far less variability and it is much easier to "integrate" the different aspects of his history into a single view. Batman has had a wider range but they all tend to fall within a certain pattern that allows the character to travel along a pendulum. Recently, we reached the far end of the pendulum (dark, gritty) and now we are seeing it swing back.

With Wonder Woman, there is no pendulum and there can be no integration. The pieces are too fractured, too inconsistent. And so the advantage of a Golden Age Wonder Woman character is that the character can be used to embody a different aesthetic than the modern Wonder Woman character - allowing a greater representation of character's history and legacy.

In a multiverse setting, it would be irrelevant. But in a single universe, the choices are more limited. The modern DCU Diana simply would not work in a World War II setting unless you had her act as an entirely different character.

And, in the end of the day, what really weakens Diana as Wonder Woman is not a lack of singularity but the absence a specific and consistent point of view.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   Matches is offline   #32
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That's quite an interpretation. It was my understanding that WW was rebooted, like with Superman, to make the character more accessible to new readers in the wake of CoIE. There was a lot of stuff, like "Judo master Diana" that might be a little hard to grasp for someone unfamiliar with the character's history.
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Judo Master Diana was long gone by the 80's - one could read WW's monthly adventures quite easily without ever needing to know about or understand the Jumpsuit Era.

WW was relaunched because it wasn't selling, period. In approaching the reboot, Perez took the opportunity to try to distinguish Diana further from Superman, by tying her more closely to Greek/ Roman mythology and making her more ambassador than superheroine. As a whole the revamp was brilliant, but setting it in the "now" instead of "year one" caused all sorts of headaches later.
 
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