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Old August 10th, 2006   Chris Hansbrough is offline   #129
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It was Charlie Sheen cooking eggs and bacon on a womens stomach. Tom isnt that cool
ddf
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**** yer right...........but tom went insane and thought he was charlie sheen. It's easy to go batty when you know the history of psychology like he does
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #130
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**** yer right...........but tom went insane and thought he was charlie sheen. It's easy to go batty when you know the history of psychology like he does
ddf
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So, he'll be joining Terra-Man on Two and a Half Men?
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #131
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So, he'll be joining Terra-Man on Two and a Half Men?
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Old August 10th, 2006   E2Brutus is offline   #132
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The point that's being missed about the violence is that that was the point (or one of them anyway) of IC. They were taking to task the violent trend in comics & saying, "It won't be this way anymore." The jury's still out on whether or not they'll follow through with that, but that was the intent.

Yes, Atom Smasher & Black Adam did some bad, extremely violent things. The same with Deathstroke shooting Bart in the knee. They did this during the ramp-up to IC, where the extreme violence in the DCU was used as the impetus to get Kal-L to break free of limbo. We then see Superboy Prime become even more violent and dangerous than the people he was supposedly "better" than. I believe that would be called "irony".

That Pantha was one of the characters chosen to reveal this irony is unfortunate for her fans, but you have to realise that the number of Pantha fans was a small group compared to others. I understand how you feel having a favorite character killed off in an arbitrary manner(I'm a Hank Hall fan myself, not to mention Jade).

Or, look at it this way: her death meant something because we knew her & knew who she was. When you read that panel you say, "Oh, my God--he killed Pantha!" If Bushido had been first on the block you would be saying, "Oh, my God--he killed...that sword guy from Titans annual...what was his name again?" Less impact, less investment in the story.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Lundonj is offline   #133
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Just a few thoughts to catch up.

I can see both sides of the discussion pretty clear:

1. Yes, comics are more graphic and violent than they have ever been.

2. And yes, super-hero comics have always been violent to some degree. My third issue of Amazing Spider-Man, 1973, I'm eight years old reading out loud to my younger brother and "snap" goes Gwen Stacy's neck. Might makes right has always been a huge aspect of hero books.

That said, I didn't see Pantha's death as cheap. Sure, she was a 7th stringer, bit player, but the scene fit the story for me. Because to take Superboy Prime from SuperInnocent hero of All Time to transition into one of the DCU's most dangerous foes, he had to do something horrific. One, for him to be horrified at his own actions and second, to blame the "lesser" Universe for not bending to his will and allowing him his world and his life. There couldn't be any question in his mind or anyone else's that there was no turning back.

He did also kill Superboy and Kal-L, so his ire wasn't reserved strictly for also rans.


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Old August 10th, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #134
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First, on violence -- Am I the only one who wasn't shocked by that scene with Linda in Flash and the desctruction in Infinite Crisis? I must be reading too much Warren Ellis.

Anyway, on to the issue I actually care about.. Well, sorta...

I stated what I stated bc he was being being completely unfair to Geoff and coming up with things such as Geoff had some nefarious sexist schemes in how Pantha died which began to be completely off base.
ddf
Chris D.
Which is why I was disagreeing with him originally. In fact, I've spoken to JLG at length about singling out Geoff very recently on the Girl-Wonder.org boards. Like I said, ORIGINALLY, I was on your side.

But I felt your response was out of line. This is not the first time I've seen you defend against a sexism accusaiton by denouncing ALL sexism concerns as invalid. That seriously offends me because I have seen majorly sexist missteps even by writers I absolutely adore.

It doesn't matter how many examples of males dying at the same moments or in similar situations throughout the books are given. They are always ignored, pushed aside or rationalized away so the sexism and misogynistic accusations can still keep flying. Those two words are thrown around like a badge of honor by some people, and it's wrong and off base to do so everytime something happens to a female character and then to claim that this is the ONLY way females are portrayed bc that is not the case at all.
ddf
No, what usually happens when you bring up your example lists is people disproving them for the argument at hand. In the survey thread, for example, we were discussing a trend that resulted in very few even moderately visible female characters LEFT while you were listing off high visibility male characters who retained visibility after tragic events occured. Hell, Hal Jordan DIED and still showed up in a regular series afterwards, yet you listed him along with the other main male characters that we see all the time as a counter to people upset about having only Soranik Natu as the token girl in GLC. Of COURSE this was dismissed.

Here, you're looking at the violence quotient while I'm looking at the story structure. Personally, I couldn't care less about the violence. I read Warren Ellis books too, it doesn't bother me. I'm saying you can't dismiss the point about female characters injured to further a male character's storyline.

I totally agree that Pantha is well-below 5th string on the DC hierarchy, but it's troubling that I can't think of a single male character killed for a female character's storyline to make an equivalent, so I can't in good conscience dismiss his concerns. And even once I do think of one, I'll be able to list off at least 4 female characters injured for male characters before I think of a second. This is the problem with this particular discussion. All I can do to disagree is offer JLG the cyber-equivalent of a cup of cocoa and say I don't believe that there's an intentional inequality based on gender here. I just think he finds the one character more interesting than the other as a concept.

And I can do that without a blanket dismissal of any and all concerns about women in comics.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #135
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So, he'll be joining Terra-Man on Two and a Half Men?
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Y'know, I'm surprised you didn't know about Terra Man. You should read my and/or Jim's 52 reviews that we do each week for a good synopsis of what's happening.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #136
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The point that's being missed about the violence is that that was the point (or one of them anyway) of IC. They were taking to task the violent trend in comics & saying, "It won't be this way anymore." The jury's still out on whether or not they'll follow through with that, but that was the intent.

Yes, Atom Smasher & Black Adam did some bad, extremely violent things. The same with Deathstroke shooting Bart in the knee. They did this during the ramp-up to IC, where the extreme violence in the DCU was used as the impetus to get Kal-L to break free of limbo. We then see Superboy Prime become even more violent and dangerous than the people he was supposedly "better" than. I believe that would be called "irony".

That Pantha was one of the characters chosen to reveal this irony is unfortunate for her fans, but you have to realise that the number of Pantha fans was a small group compared to others. I understand how you feel having a favorite character killed off in an arbitrary manner(I'm a Hank Hall fan myself, not to mention Jade).

Or, look at it this way: her death meant something because we knew her & knew who she was. When you read that panel you say, "Oh, my God--he killed Pantha!" If Bushido had been first on the block you would be saying, "Oh, my God--he killed...that sword guy from Titans annual...what was his name again?" Less impact, less investment in the story.
ddf
E2Brutus
Exactly!

So basically, if Geoff were to continue that level of violence now, IC would have been for nothing. We came through all that to get to OYL.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #137
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Y'know, I'm surprised you didn't know about Terra Man. You should read my and/or Jim's 52 reviews that we do each week for a good synopsis of what's happening.
ddf
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To be totally honest, my first real reaction was "When the heck did they re-introduce Terra-Man of all people after CoIE?". Talk about your Mort of the Month!
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #138
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The point that's being missed about the violence is that that was the point (or one of them anyway) of IC. They were taking to task the violent trend in comics & saying, "It won't be this way anymore." The jury's still out on whether or not they'll follow through with that, but that was the intent.
ddf
E2Brutus
Except didn't Terra-Man (of all people) get ripped in half during 52? I realize I'm new to this revelation and all, but that's the impression I got. If so, they already dropped the ball on this one.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #139
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To be totally honest, my first real reaction was "When the heck did they re-introduce Terra-Man of all people after CoIE?". Talk about your Mort of the Month!
ddf
TJLamb0518
Yeah, that was my reaction as well. It REALLY disappointed me that they brought him in just to kill him, since he had some good pre-Crisis moments in Superman, including being involved with Supergirl and actually, if memory serves, ending as a hero, not a villain.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #140
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Except didn't Terra-Man (of all people) get ripped in half during 52? I realize I'm new to this revelation and all, but that's the impression I got. If so, they already dropped the ball on this one.
ddf
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Well technically they haven't, since DC's claim was that OYL was going to be the payoff, and the ripping of Terra Man happened in 52, which takes place before OYL.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #141
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Well technically they haven't, since DC's claim was that OYL was going to be the payoff, and the ripping of Terra Man happened in 52, which takes place before OYL.
ddf
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I've still yet to see DC's claim about OYL. I mean, what was the eact wording? A lighter, brighter world? A simpler world? A more iconic world? All the darkness would go away?

I only knew that it was a year skip, and all the IC storylines would be far behind us.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #142
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I've still yet to see DC's claim about OYL. I mean, what was the eact wording? A lighter, brighter world? A simpler world? A more iconic world? All the darkness would go away?

I only knew that it was a year skip, and all the IC storylines would be far behind us.
ddf
Ragnell
Basically to the effect of a brighter DCU after all the darkness. For the most part they've delivered...I'm enjoying Superman more than I have in almost 20 years, same with most of the titles I'm reading. I was one of the strong voices against the darkness and holding their irons to the fire on delivering with OYL, and I have to say they seemed to have done it.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #143
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Basically to the effect of a brighter DCU after all the darkness. For the most part they've delivered...I'm enjoying Superman more than I have in almost 20 years, same with most of the titles I'm reading. I was one of the strong voices against the darkness and holding their irons to the fire on delivering with OYL, and I have to say they seemed to have done it.
ddf
John Hays
*nod* Yeah, Batman was the one where I saw it the most myself. For the first time in years I'm buying both Superman titles and both Batman titles. Still, I've seen a lot of mixed reviews on whether they've delivered or not. Possibly because I read so many blogs and visit such different boards.

Either way, I'm still pretty bloodthirsty myself, I hope there's something gory for us violence-fans after 52 ends.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #144
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First, on violence -- Am I the only one who wasn't shocked by that scene with Linda in Flash and the desctruction in Infinite Crisis? I must be reading too much Warren Ellis.

Anyway, on to the issue I actually care about.. Well, sorta...



Which is why I was disagreeing with him originally. In fact, I've spoken to JLG at length about singling out Geoff very recently on the Girl-Wonder.org boards. Like I said, ORIGINALLY, I was on your side.

But I felt your response was out of line. This is not the first time I've seen you defend against a sexism accusaiton by denouncing ALL sexism concerns as invalid. That seriously offends me because I have seen majorly sexist missteps even by writers I absolutely adore.
ddf
Ragnell
Once again, the response was SUPPOSED to be abrasive as JLG's had become to show how posting like that can turn off people to an opinion. I knew some people wouldn't get it though. My fault.

Once again my problem with the whole sexism thing is that it is always accused anytime something happens to a female, and many times is off base. But some peopll don't want to hear that

No, what usually happens when you bring up your example lists is people disproving them for the argument at hand. In the survey thread, for example, we were discussing a trend that resulted in very few even moderately visible female characters LEFT while you were listing off high visibility male characters who retained visibility after tragic events occured. Hell, Hal Jordan DIED and still showed up in a regular series afterwards, yet you listed him along with the other main male characters that we see all the time as a counter to people upset about having only Soranik Natu as the token girl in GLC. Of COURSE this was dismissed.
ddf
Ragnell
Once again your seeing what you want to. I simply stated and showed how most of the characters have gone through similar stuff. Some people don't want to hear that bc it takes away from the comics hate women theory. The subject was events that happened to GL characters, especially females. After it was shown what happened to the males also, it was twisted to well, the females aren't around, which isnt even the case now. Only Katma's not around right now.

Comparing Hal to second and third string characters is completely off base. He is one of DC's major icons. Of course they would try and use him and have him appear.

Funny your bringing up Soranik, as a male GL died in the beginning of the GLC mini so she could have a ring sent to her. But that stuff never happens.

Here, you're looking at the violence quotient while I'm looking at the story structure. Personally, I couldn't care less about the violence. I read Warren Ellis books too, it doesn't bother me. I'm saying you can't dismiss the point about female characters injured to further a male character's storyline.

I totally agree that Pantha is well-below 5th string on the DC hierarchy, but it's troubling that I can't think of a single male character killed for a female character's storyline to make an equivalent, so I can't in good conscience dismiss his concerns. And even once I do think of one, I'll be able to list off at least 4 female characters injured for male characters before I think of a second. This is the problem with this particular discussion. All I can do to disagree is offer JLG the cyber-equivalent of a cup of cocoa and say I don't believe that there's an intentional inequality based on gender here. I just think he finds the one character more interesting than the other as a concept.

And I can do that without a blanket dismissal of any and all concerns about women in comics.
ddf
Ragnell
If an issue is brought up objectively, that's fine. But making the blanket accusation that comics are sexist and all women are treated unfairly is just plain wrong. Blanket accusations are fair play I see. So is continually trying to point out and skew events that happen to females to make it seem sexist, while downplaying everything that happens to any male characters. And i've checked your blog out. You are anything but objective, you have an agenda, and that's fine. Most people don't buy it though.
Last edited by Chris D.; August 10th, 2006 at 05:20 PM.
 
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