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Old August 10th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #81
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you don't buy comics anymore so you won't read it anyway.
ddf
Chris Hansbrough
I just love this logic.

And no, this won't have an effect on his writing. he's a good writer. And no good writer ever feels they have to top themselves on an issue like that. they feel like they have to top themselves in quality. not violence or cursing or mature theming. Geoff can still write books without over the top bloodbathery and I'm pretty sure he doesn't feel the need to make things gorier and gorier. he feels the need to make his storywriting better and better.
ddf
Actually, a LOT of good artists (writer, musician, what have you) feels the pressure (external, if not internal) to top themselves. Usually with less than stellar results.

I don't know for sure if he actually feels this way but I don't know any good writer that feels they have to top themselves over and over and over on an issue like gore. quality storytelling though.....that's the goal. keep progressing as a writer.
ddf
The gore got people talking. It got a lot of attention. It can be said it may have helped sell books.


"Let's see I killed 20 people in infinite crisis so in the first JSA arc I need to kill......23" = not the sign of a good writer
ddf
But Maven isn;t talking about bodycounts as much as she is about shocking the readers. Keeping them on the edge of their seats and going "oh, my GOD! I can't believe that!". And yes, there is precedent that this is what's going on.


"let's see I thought I did some pretty great wrk with that last arc of JSA I wrote....let's see if the relaunch can be even better" = the sign of a good writer

I have a strange feeling geoff is the second
ddf

I agree. I think he's the second, but is also influenced by the first. Hard not tobe, truth be told.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #82
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Ah....if Hal Jordan, Ollie Queen, Kara Zor-el, Aunt May, Jason Todd and BUCKY can return from the dead, anyone can.
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But how would she wear a mask? She's got no HEAD!!!
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #83
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Actually, I can almost see where this is coming from. If I recall the order of events correctly, first we had some people saying Atom Smasher stepping on some evil warlord guy in JSA was gruesome. Then we had Black Adam having a heart to heart with Kobra (well, it was one heart, but first Kobra had it then Black Adam did). Now we have the slaughter in IC #4. Then we apparently have the first superhero, Kal-L, the Golden Age Superman brutally beaten to death. So, there kind of IS a precednet for asking if Geoff is indulging in a "can you top this?" type of writing when it comes to depicting death on panel.
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True, but if you analyze your examples, Atom Smashers action was due in large part to what Black Adam was filling his head with. Black Adam's actions have been and will continue to be because he's sorta like DC's Punisher. The dark anti-hero that's more brutal than most. So unless something drastically changes with him, this will continue. We've also now seen more Black Adam in comics in the past few years since Geoff started writing him than we have in his entire history, so for better or worse, whatever he's doing is selling.

The other 2 examples go back to my earlier point. They were both in a once-in-twenty years event story, where the violence by Superboy Prime was taken up several notches to highlight its intensity when compared to the standard fare in the DCU for that specific effect, and therefore would be highly unlikely to become the norm.

So two characters out of however many Geoff has written or continues to write doesn't necessarily show me a trend that I need to worry about.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   KevinTBrown is offline   #84
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But how would she wear a mask? She's got no HEAD!!!
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Ollie Queen had no body..... He was literally ashes.
 
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KTB is right...
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #85
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But Maven isn;t talking about bodycounts as much as she is about shocking the readers. Keeping them on the edge of their seats and going "oh, my GOD! I can't believe that!". And yes, there is precedent that this is what's going on.
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Actually what she said was ratcheting up ultra violence, not just shocking the readers.

Geoff's ALWAYS had a great knack for shocking readers with his cliffhanger endings. This is something different.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Chris Hansbrough is offline   #86
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oh very true it's hard not to be. but the fact of the matter is that with all these powers that these characcters have how can you not have a holy crap that was awesome death. People keep saying man why can't they just have someone just die in a not so awesome way. yet when a character does die in a way that isn't totally badass everyone bitches about how disrespectful it is. Most of the people whining are also the same poeple who talk about how a character needs to just die in an accident......so which is it. you want characters to die an accidental, more toned down death (Which is disrespectful because they don't go down in glory) or a violent death (Which is awesome but still disrespectfull because they didn't go out quietly) it's a catch-22 and poeple are gonna be pissed either way. btu with such vast powers in characters it leads to more violent deaths because let's face it. if someone with super strenght kills you it gonna cost you some body parts.

uit's not really trying to ratchet up the violence I don't think. I think it's more of a ....if you get punched in the face by superman who isn't holding back there will be holes. if you get killed by deathstroke there will be stabbing. it's really just what a superhero death would be in a fight with a supervillain
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Matches is offline   #87
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But how would she wear a mask? She's got no HEAD!!!
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Easily fixable for a character whose whole schtick was that she was a genetic mutation. Just have her grow a new one.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Matches is offline   #88
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True, but if you analyze your examples, Atom Smashers action was due in large part to what Black Adam was filling his head with. Black Adam's actions have been and will continue to be because he's sorta like DC's Punisher. The dark anti-hero that's more brutal than most. So unless something drastically changes with him, this will continue. We've also now seen more Black Adam in comics in the past few years since Geoff started writing him than we have in his entire history, so for better or worse, whatever he's doing is selling.
ddf
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Probably worth noting that JSA hasn't presented Black Adam's or Atom Smasher's actions as "kewl". There have been consequences for both of them as a result, and both of them have been shown to be, at times, unhappy.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Chris Hansbrough is offline   #89
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Ollie Queen had no body..... He was literally ashes.
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yeah but booster gold doesn't have powers beyond a gods. he can't exactly rebuild his bestest buddy molecule by molecule
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #90
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Probably worth noting that JSA hasn't presented Black Adam's or Atom Smasher's actions as "kewl". There have been consequences for both of them as a result, and both of them have been shown to be, at times, unhappy.
ddf
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Excellent point. Atom Smasher is in prison and Black Adam would be as well if he turned himself over to US authorities.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #91
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True, but if you analyze your examples, Atom Smashers action was due in large part to what Black Adam was filling his head with. Black Adam's actions have been and will continue to be because he's sorta like DC's Punisher. The dark anti-hero that's more brutal than most. So unless something drastically changes with him, this will continue. We've also now seen more Black Adam in comics in the past few years since Geoff started writing him than we have in his entire history, so for better or worse, whatever he's doing is selling.

The other 2 examples go back to my earlier point. They were both in a once-in-twenty years event story, where the violence by Superboy Prime was taken up several notches to highlight its intensity when compared to the standard fare in the DCU for that specific effect, and therefore would be highly unlikely to become the norm.

So two characters out of however many Geoff has written or continues to write doesn't necessarily show me a trend that I need to worry about.
ddf
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Geoff writing the scene where Zoom caused Linda Park to miscarry. Add that one to the list.


Also, you're explaining story motivations. The why's behind the scenes. I'm not contesting they all had "reasons" behind them. But, ultimately, all those characters were written from the same pen. In reality, none of these motivations were more than a story. I certainly hope we're not discussing what the motivations of the characters were. I thought we were discussing if the writer of the characters was writing graphically violent scenes and whether or not that were getting progressively violent.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #92
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With Jade it was a long time ago, I forget the names. I was arguing with someone named Chris for a bit, but ultimately I was arguing against the entire community on that one. Also because I'd seen everyone (except for the only guy on the thread with a reason to take her comments personally) gang up on soemone and bully her away.



Well, your point is off. Especially when you get people who agree with you to switch sides based on it. The accusations are not blanket. The arguments aren't even the same. The survey thing was about examining attitudes and seeing about a trend when it came to female characters (and I kept going there because you did too ), but this thread is about a specific event. Let's address this one along with the Jade one, since they both have the fridge thing in common.

He was bringing up a very specific point. That his favorite character is gone, and the reasoning (revealed in the interview) seemed off to him. It was perfectly addressable. The Jade accusations are based on the story itself, and the fact that she died to power up a male hero, and didn't get to do anything worthwhile (Sheesh, she could have at least saved someone.)

There's a wealth of symbolism and story cliches that enforce gender roles that people are thinking of when they bring this up. They are also thinking of superficially similar situations with men where things were treated differently. Instead of arguing these points with valid counters -- men who have been injured SPECIFICALLY to bring angst to a female character, which is the actual equivalent of the Fridge accusation; or reasons the character may have been considered disposable -- you're just plain dismissive of the person arguing because heaven forfend, someone may have brought up sexism.

Here's the thing, we live in a society with still very strict gender roles, as a guy you must know this -- its it socially acceptable for you to wear certain clothing, to express certain emotions? Well, on the female side we experience our own problems, where you are not expected to be able to do a certain job (science, math) or think a certain way (mechanically, logically) as well because of your gender. Sexism still exists, as we still have assumptions in our society about behavior that's proper for a man yet is not proper for a woman, and vice versa.

Since society has these gender roles and presuppositions, they are going to show up in stories also. Probably moreso than they show in real life. It's worth examining a female role in a story and how it may differ from a male role, sometimes it turns out to be inconsequential, yes (I can think of a few anti-Arisia posts I had to read twice before I decided it wasn't a putting the blame on the woman attitude so much as a "The main character can do no wrong" attitude), rarely does it turn out to be malicious (Actually, I can't think of an instance where I've believed a moment of sexism in comics to be intentional or malicious), but sometimes it needs to be looked into and changed.

You can't simply dismiss the argument offhand because sexism comes up. You have to actually address the person's concerns on a mature level. It's not only perfectly acceptable to examine the possibility of sexism, it's downright important to consider the option, not only in the stuff you dislike but also in the stories that you do like, and in your own attitude. Considering the possibility does not lead to conclusion that it exists and even more importantly, Concluding that it exists does not imply that it was malicious, or that the writer is a bad person or an unskilled writer, just that the cliche appeared. Gender roles are a common storytelling tool, but they're restrictive for all characters and looking into them opens up creative opportunities by expanding your range of character types and situations.

Again, I personally disagree with JLG on Pantha's death. I don't even think that a Fridge moment is necessarily a bad thing (I do think it's a terrible thing when we only see women on the one side of that narrative tool. And at the moment I can come up with men injured to give angst to other men before I can think of men injured or killed to give angst to women). But that's no reason to dismiss his concerns out of hand as "Freaking out over a female character."

And I reiterate that I'm annoyed because I wanted to stay out of this, because once again I'm arguing on the side I disagree with (), but I can't bring myself to leave your comments alone. You're being unfair to him. (By that I'm directly addressing Chris D, not everyone on the thread.)
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I stated what I stated bc he was being being completely unfair to Geoff and coming up with things such as Geoff had some nefarious sexist schemes in how Pantha died which began to be completely off base.

Pantha is a 3rd or probably 4th string character who hasn't even been seen in a while. They wanted a moment in which to show SBP is completely off his rocker and how dangerous that was bc how powerful he was, so they decided he would kill a bunch of very minor Titans. Now an argument that the scene to some people was too explicit....ok. An argument about killing all of the characters....fine. An argument stating that one character is a favorite and it was sad to see them go ......fine.

MANY tirades about sexism when 1 female and 3 males are killed in the same scene, 1 male gets his arm ripped off, and 2 more males die later in that issue is off base. It seems like no matter what the situation, someone is yelling sexism anytime something negative happens or a female character dies. That's just plain wrong.

It doesn't matter how many examples of males dying at the same moments or in similar situaions throughout the books are given. They are always ignored, pushed aside or rationalized away so the sexism and misogynistic accusations can still keep flying. Those two words are thrown around like a badge of honor by some people, and it's wrong and off base to do so everytime something happens to a female character and then to claim that this is the ONLY way females are portrayed bc that is not the case at all.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Matches is offline   #93
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Zoom causing Linda Park to miscarry. Add that one to the list.
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I don't really recall anything graphic or sensationalistic about that one. Marvel had Sue Richards miscarry 20 years ago.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Chris Hansbrough is offline   #94
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Zoom causing Linda Park to miscarry. Add that one to the list.
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which was then reversed and she had 2 kids.
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #95
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Zoom causing Linda Park to miscarry. Add that one to the list.
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How's that showing blood and gore?
 
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Old August 10th, 2006   Chris Hansbrough is offline   #96
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How's that showing blood and gore?
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it was on the inside.....off panel
 
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