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Old July 21st, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #33
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Oh, I agree with that. I just didn't want to get into it because that's another rant about how one takes a concept from a pre-feminist era (or at least one where feminist ideals had not really taken root in the way they have begun to today) and integrates feminism in a way that is organic in the story, which leads to a discussion about whether or not the formation of the new Corps post-Green Lantern Rebirth - which was an excellent oppurtunity to do just that - was successful or not.
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Ahh, see, but that's the discussion that would be more productive than listing all of the terrible things that happen to individual characters.
 
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Old July 21st, 2006   Ravenwing263 is offline   #34
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Ahh, see, but that's the discussion that would be more productive than listing all of the terrible things that happen to individual characters.
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Ragnell
Well.

Uh, yes.

Yes, you certainly have a point there.
 
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Old July 22nd, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #35
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Ahh, see, but that's the discussion that would be more productive than listing all of the terrible things that happen to individual characters.
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lol...
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #36
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lol...
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You think comparing the individuals would be more productive than discussing the trend?
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #37
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Okay, I just wanted to thank everyone who answered, but anyone else after here won't be counted -- I got 10 respondents here, 7 at YABS, and 12 at Girl-wonder. I'll be posting the results, and some of my reactions on Zamaron when I'm done going through everything and I'll probably write it up a few other places, maybe link it here in a new thread topic.

Thanks again, so much everyone!
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #38
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You think comparing the individuals would be more productive than discussing the trend?
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Ragnell

Yes, I think objectively taking into account all of the characters and what has happened to each, and seeing all aspects of all the characterizations...once again objectively.... would be more productive than just listng all of the terrible things that happen to just the female characters(while some people completely ignore all the positives).
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #39
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Yes, I think objectively taking into account all of the characters and what has happened to each, and seeing all aspects of all the characterizations...once again objectively.... would be more productive than just listng all of the terrible things that happen to just the female characters(while some people completely ignore all the positives).
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Chris D.
Well, that's what I'm saying, but one of the things you have to take into consideration is that there are simply more males than females, which, in itself is a hgue problem. I have no problem with killing off any of these characters if we had an equal number of viable replacements. 1 Korugarian woman in a major cast of 6 just doesn't cut it. You need 3 of 6 to be equal.

Another thing that you have to take into account is recovery rate -- Who is still active?

I've never been fond of the fridge method for either side because it doesn't address these concerns.

Yes, indvidual deaths are useful to examine and analyze for symbolism (and that Fridge had amazing Feminist symbolism, as does Jade's death) but if you're arguing the franchise as a whole, there's larger things at work.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #40
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Well, that's what I'm saying, but one of the things you have to take into consideration is that there are simply more males than females, which, in itself is a hgue problem. I have no problem with killing off any of these characters if we had an equal number of viable replacements. 1 Korugarian woman in a major cast of 6 just doesn't cut it. You need 3 of 6 to be equal.

Another thing that you have to take into account is recovery rate -- Who is still active?

I've never been fond of the fridge method for either side because it doesn't address these concerns.

Yes, indvidual deaths are useful to examine and analyze for symbolism (and that Fridge had amazing Feminist symbolism, as does Jade's death) but if you're arguing the franchise as a whole, there's larger things at work.
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Ragnell

You have to understand that there will always be more males than females. It's the nature of the industry, which is probably about 90-10 male/female readers and creators. That's giving females extra percentage points. DC and Marvel are businesses, if there was a huge female following, they'd go after that market, there isn't. That's why most major characters are male. That's just the reality. Considering that fact, I think as a whole they go above and beyond portraying females positively in comics.

If you want to take in account recovery rate then only 2 female GL's have died. Katma and Jade. Alex was a character created to die. No different than Abin Sur, only she was female so it can spark a reaction of "sexism" or that it was "misogynistic". Marz could have portrayed her negatively, as a ditz or something else, but she was made to be actually more mature than Kyle and iin a better light. Also despite her gruesome demise she was strong and never gave Kyle up. Any points like that are not even thought of bc it's easy to look at the surface and cry foul.

Arisia was never suposed to have "died' in Beau's run, it's just the book got cancelled so her comeback never took place. Even Guy died and was gone for awhile.

So is it tough as a female comics fan just because there are more male leads? I'm sure it is. But to call things sexist and misogynistic gets a little out of control sometimes. Esepcially for the GL franchise in which one main death really blankets more than half a century of stories in a title in which females were actually portrayed in a better light than in other books.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #41
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You have to understand that there will always be more males than females. It's the nature of the industry, which is probably about 90-10 male/female readers and creators. That's giving females extra percentage points. DC and Marvel are businesses, if there was a huge female following, they'd go after that market, there isn't. That's why most major characters are male. That's just the reality. Considering that fact, I think as a whole they go above and beyond portraying females positively in comics.
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Chris D.

No, that's the problem of the industry, Chris, and if you can't understand that we'll always be talking past each other.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #42
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No, that's the problem of the industry, Chris, and if you can't understand that we'll always be talking past each other.
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Ragnell

It's not the problem with the industry, it's a reality of the fanbase. There's a difference, and that creates the rift in the # of males vs females. If there were more females buying books, and female leads sold big numbers, there would be a big difference in the ratio.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #43
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It's not the problem with the industry, it's a reality of the fanbase. There's a difference, and that creates the rift in the # of males vs females. If there were more females buying books, and female leads sold big numbers, there would be a big difference in the ratio.
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Chris D.
Listen, Chris, what you're doing here is using sexism to defend sexism. The reason the books sell to male readers -- they are marketed to male readers. Why are they marketed to male readers? Because people assume only male readers will be interested. It's a cyclical argument.

It's the underlying problem behind the sexism in all superhero comics. It's not a proper defense.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #44
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Listen, Chris, what you're doing here is using sexism to defend sexism. The reason the books sell to male readers -- they are marketed to male readers. Why are they marketed to male readers? Because people assume only male readers will be interested. It's a cyclical argument.

It's the underlying problem behind the sexism in all superhero comics. It's not a proper defense.
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Ragnell

I'm sorry, but accusing everything of being sexist gets old. That's not a proper argument. Exclaiming sexism everytime something negative happens to any female character is also out of line. Female readers and creators are an EXTREME minority. It's not even like it's a 60-40 or 70-30 split. Even Wonder Woman who is one of the most recognizable characters in the world doesn't sell big. And still, a lot of that fanbase is male. That being the case, there are a # of strong female characters in existence despite the fact. You can write out a long list of strong and dynamic female characters that regularly beat the crap out of males. Once again, DC and Marvel are companies out to make money. Females don't buy comics, never have. When there is a minority, that's what it means, there are less. So if there are less readers interested in buying, there will be less characters created for a market that is very small. It's a reality.

Females represent the #1 demographic of people who purchase and support pop culture. Time Warner kind of knows this. They would love to sell to them. Comics just aren't an attraction to most of them. It's ridiculously dominated by males. That's why there isn't a 50/50 split that some seem to expect.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #45
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Chris -- What else do you call making a judgment based on gender?

"We'll market to men, because we assume women don't buy comics. They are an extremist minority, so there's no reason to reach out to them. No reason to include them. We've never been friendly to them, they don't buy, so we can assume they just don't like the medium."

This is a sexist argument. You can't get around it. You certainly can't say that someone else shouting about female deaths being sexist is wrong, and then apply it to this argument. It doens't work. There aren't women buyers because no one is trying for them.

Take Supergirl for example. Name recognition, teenaged girl version of Superman. This book should be for teenaged girls. There's teenaged girls reading manga in book stores. Hey, why not take Supergirl and try to market her for teenaged girls in book stores?

Is that what's happening? No, it's being marketed for the current audience. They're not reaching out to the teenaged girl democraphic.

Going back to Green Lantern, Green Lantern should be for everyone. Everyone should be included.

Look at the answers to these questions. Does everyone feel they are being included?

I specifically worded Q3 as an extremist viewpoint. I expected everyone on this board, at least, to balk at the idea and say no. Split hairs, say it may be sexist. I got "4 Nos, 3 Yes, 2 abstentions and 1 sexist but not misogynistic." And this is not on the Feminist site. This is from here.

This is not how things should be. If we had more female characters, higher visibility female characters, female characters on the cover who wren't purely there for cheesecake, I'd be willing to put down money that there would be more female readers. But if women don't feel included, if they don't see themselves as more than token characters and fanservice, then why would they be interested?

The reason there are very few women in comics is that the industry is not courting them.
Last edited by Ragnell; July 23rd, 2006 at 10:11 PM.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #46
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Chris -- What else do you call making a judgment based on gender?

We'll market to men, because we assume women don't buy comics. They are an extremist minority, so there's no reason to reach out to them. No reason to include them. We've never been friendly to them, they don't buy, so we can assume they just don't like the medium.
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Ragnell


It's a judgement based on numbers and sales. Look at Spidergirl...constantly almost getting cancelled. Manhunter got cancelled but rallied back, probably for only a short time, but most of the fanbase for that is male. They do put out female books, only the iconic ones survive. It's not sexist if the reality is that girls don't buy comics. They do reach out to female readers, female readers don't respond. Like I said there are a large # of strong and dynamic female characters. Time Warner kind of knows buying demographics. They know that females are the #1 buyers of most stuff they sell. They also know that since they've been created, comics, even ones starring dynamic , well written high profile female characters, don't sell to women.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #47
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It's a judgement based on numbers and sales. Look at Spidergirl...constantly almost getting cancelled. Manhunter got cancelled but rallied back, probably for only a short time, but most of the fanbase for that is male. They do put out female books, only the iconic ones survive. It's not sexist if the reality is that girls don't buy comics. They do reach out to female readers, female readers don't respond. Like I said there are a large # of strong and dynamic female characters. Time Warner kind of knows buying demographics. They know that females are the #1 buyers of most stuff they sell. They also know that since they've been created comics, even ones starring dynamic , well written female characters, don't sell to women.
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See my edited response.
 
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Old July 23rd, 2006   Chris D. is offline   #48
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Chris -- What else do you call making a judgment based on gender?

"We'll market to men, because we assume women don't buy comics. They are an extremist minority, so there's no reason to reach out to them. No reason to include them. We've never been friendly to them, they don't buy, so we can assume they just don't like the medium."

This is a sexist argument. You can't get around it. You certainly can't say that someone else shouting about female deaths being sexist is wrong, and then apply it to this argument. It doens't work. There aren't women buyers because no one is trying for them.
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Ragnell
You want to claim sexism. You want to see sexism. So that's what you'll see. Any argument otherwise you try to rationalize away. Even when it's objectively debated, that in itself becomes sexist. When it's shown how positively a large # of females are portrayed, it's ignored. When it's shown what the male characters also go through, all of a sudden listing what happens to characters isn't a good argument. But it's a great argument when people start out listing what happens to females. Constantly claiming everytime something negative happens to any female characters is wrong, and in fact that's sexist. I've given examples and there are plenty more of titles with female leads. They have tried for female readers plenty if times.

try[/b] to market her for teenaged girls in book stores?

Is that what's happening? No, it's being marketed for the current audience. They're not reaching out to the teenaged girl democraphic.
ddf
RagnellTake Supergirl for example. Name recognition, teenaged girl version of Superman. This book should be for teenaged girls. There's teenaged girls reading manga in book stores. Hey, why not take Supergirl and [b
Supergirl will be collected in TPB and sold in bookestores so what your claiming doesn't really hold water. Supergirl actually sells well. So putting out a Supergirl or a female lead is not marketing to girls? OK

Going back to Green Lantern, Green Lantern should be for everyone. Everyone should be included.

Look at the answers to these questions. Does everyone feel they are being included?

I specifically worded Q3 as an extremist viewpoint. I expected everyone on this board, at least, to balk at the idea and say no. Split hairs, say it may be sexist. I got "4 Nos, 3 Yes, 2 abstentions and 1 sexist but not misogynistic." And this is not on the Feminist site. This is from here.
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Ragnell
That's bc everyone looks at the "Women in Refridgerators" and thinks it is. Donna death is attributed to Kyle and GL, but had nothing to do with either. Arisia was never meant to really die. Katma's marriage and death is looked on as sexist, but if she wasn't married to John, she wouldn't have even been in the book as much. People complain about Jade and Kyle, but once again she wouldn't have been anywhere if not in the GL book. People complain how she left, but she did bc she was getting to be a main character in another book. People complain how she died, and they can, bc that was crappy.

Alex is the huge one. Once again, how she was portrayed doesn't matter. The fact she was created to die, like a lot of male characters(Abin Sur and Laira's father to name a couple) becomes a cry for the book being misogynistic. What that is really saying is that females do not want to be seen as the males w/ negatives and deaths, but any negative treatment is sexist.
This is not how things should be. If we had more female characters, higher visibility female characters, female characters on the cover who weren't purely there for cheesecake, I'd be willing to put down money that there would be more female readers. But if women don't feel included, if they don't see themselves as more than token characters and fanservice, then why would they be interested?
ddf
Ragnell
There are an enormous # of high visibility female characters in comics. I don't know how many times i have to say this. MANY of them who have or have been given at some time, their own titles. If you don't want to see it fine. That's your choice. I also find it interesting how it's ok for you to pine and oggle over Kyle's butt or if a guy is drawn naked, which is natural and fine, but if guys like to see girls, it's the evil sexism again. Who really has the double standard in their mind?]/QUOTE]

The reason there are very few women in comics is that the industry is not courting them.
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Ragnell
They have tried to get females. Once again they aren't and never have been intersted. It would be the equivalent of trying to market daytime soap operas for men. That being the case, they do make conscious efforts to make viable, strong, interesting female characters and give them there own books. Usually they don't make it. And when they do, usually they aren't huge sellers.
Last edited by Chris D.; July 23rd, 2006 at 11:08 PM.
 
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