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Old July 17th, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #17
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I don't recall stating men were treated WORSE. Just if you objectively look at ALL the characters through the years, you see that every single one has gone through some crazy stuff. To claim (and you never did) that the book has been and is "sexist" and "misogynistic" is just way off base when it always has had a large # of strong and interetsing female characters.
ddf
Chris D.
Fair enough, Chris -- Here's the thing, of those listed -- up until GL#12 everyone except for Ch'p and Tomar Re was returned to life. All of the female lanterns except for Soranik were dead. Hence my reasoning for posting this at this time. That's why I asked if it seems misogynistic as a franchise, remember, these questions are going to people who aren't fans and some of the reasonibng I've heard for them not being fans when I've pushed the book is "It's misogynistic." I'm just seeing how widespread the attitude is.
 
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Old July 17th, 2006   Lundonj is offline   #18
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(Oh, and for the purposes of this questionnaire: Once a Lantern, Always a Lantern.)

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?
ddf
Ragnell
Yes.

2) If no, how would you describe its reputation as relating to women?

3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?
ddf
As to specific origin of the word misogyny as "hatred of women", I would say, no. I would agree a number of issues in and around the series, especially the 1960's-70's books were sexist at times. Books by males, for males in perspective, but not anything showing absolute disdain for females.

4) If yes, has it ever been to the point that you would drop the book over it?

5) Are you reading now?
ddf
Yes.

6) If yes, is it getting better?
ddf
Yes.

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?
ddf
Hal Jordan. But generally, I find almost any ring bearer fun to read.

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?
ddf
I really like her a lot. Of the new GLs, she is my favorite. I think she did a litttle bit of a rewind to start the ongoing series, in that I thought she had overcome the initial trepidation of being a Lantern. Tons of potential.

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?
ddf
Somewhat, but more writing issues than an agenda to destroy the character. An opportunity lost I'd say.

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?
ddf
I think still trying to figure that out. I didn't think I wanted Arisia back at all, but I suddenly thought of all the amazing character potential the moment she recently appeared back on panel. Boddika was the tougher GL personality I missed most.

11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.
ddf
I always kind of thought the SS aspects were limited and played out. Carol was already a very strong individual and being transformed into a 'stronger' darker villain didn't add a lot of value to her character. Certainly, it provided some drama, but it seemed like a lot of the stories were focused on Hal trying to not harm SS because of Carol. No matter how powerful she was, she was still a damsel in distress...at least in the eyes of the protagonist.

12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?
ddf
Carol Ferris.

13) Why?
ddf
Another post already caught the highlights, but I thought her characterization was even more powerful because of the timeline. In the Silver Age it was a bit rare to find a strong, wealthy, independent, career driven person. And really, I thought the modern version, who didn't simply ditch her current life because of Hal's return, really plays to the strengths of the character. Not that she didn't have some sappy moments along the way, but generally, a pretty complex character for the time.


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Old July 17th, 2006   LaPrincesa is offline   #19
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I'm a girl so I'll answer:

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern? no

2) If no, how would you describe its reputation as relating to women? not good, the whole sicing and dicing women thing from the past, also Kat...

3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic? very

4) If yes, has it ever been to the point that you would drop the book over it?If I bought I proably would have, but for others reasons

5) Are you reading now? I'm waiting...my gen's GL is John by way of the JLU, I'll buy it if they play him fair, if not, nope.

6) If yes, is it getting better? not yet it hasn't

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite? John

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character? I like her, reminds me of Kat...mmm-n...

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character? no, it enhanced both of them. I believe a real character has to have a personal life or else they just dress funny and hit people. John needs a woman in his life. Interestingly on that note no black male DC character has a personal life...

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most? Kat, but see she had a JLU episode so I 'know' her. The chica they just brought back looks interesting...

11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was. mmm-n...underdeveloped...

12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest? I like Kat but possibly Jade...

13) Why? people still discuss her
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Old July 18th, 2006   Kris is offline   #20
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I don't recall stating men were treated WORSE. Just if you objectively look at ALL the characters through the years, you see that every single one has gone through some crazy stuff. To claim (and you never did) that the book has been and is "sexist" and "misogynistic" is just way off base when it always has had a large # of strong and interetsing female characters.
ddf
Chris D.
That's called hijacking the thread because you don't like other people's answers, Chris. You already said you don't think the franchise has been misogynistic.
 
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Old July 19th, 2006   WokHead is offline   #21
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I think mysogeny is thrown around a bit as a term but certainly debateable in the GL titles. The whole 'Women in Refridgerators' thing used a green lantern story for it's title but if you look at most comics, the themes are the same.

Check out the list on http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/index.html and it shows women characters having a tough go at it in comicdom in general (Just look at Jean Grey).

I think that GL does have the rep of being unfair to women, though mostly because of Kyle's unending streak of dead girlfriends, but I don't think that reputation is fair, given the histories of pretty much all other female characters. Even then, I think the male characters in comicdom have it just as bad. They killed Supergirl in COIE, and then killed Superboy and Kal-L in IC. Superman died fighting doomsday. Joker crippled Batgirl in Killing Joke. Bane crippled Batman in Knightfall.

Just my thoughts. Comics are a violent medium. Misfortune hits every character, male or female.
 
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Old July 19th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #22
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Here's how I saw the costume: GL#12 Spoilers.



Actually, why are you assuming the reason I did this was that I had a negative reaction? I direct you to Question #6.
ddf
Ragnell
FYI, your history of Arisia has a typo...she was older in her planet's years, just appeared younger in Earth years, not the other way around. Also, if she's 28, then there's no lapse in judgement on Hal's part. The writer has already cleared this up.
 
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Old July 19th, 2006   John Hays is offline   #23
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1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?

Yep, every since the GL Corps series started, minus Kyle's issues.

2) If no, how would you describe its reputation as relating to women?

3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?

No, the women just don't tend to last very long! lol....

4) If yes, has it ever been to the point that you would drop the book over it?

N/A

5) Are you reading now?

Of course!

6) If yes, is it getting better?

Ehhh...only in that Hal and the Corps are back! Those are the books I enjoyed.

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?

Hal, of course!

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?

She's cool...I hope they explore more of her abilities to heal others!

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?

Not at all! They were equal partners! Marriage doesn't automatically equal lesser treatment...look at Lois!

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?

Arisia....oh, wait!

11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.

Completely depends on who was writing her...she went from vixen to domineering warrior to uncertain victim, etc...then there was Predator...don't even get me started!

12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?

Do you mean who has been the strongest love interest FOR a GL? Carol Ferris, easily.

13) Why?

She's lasted longer than any other, and been seen more in the issues.
 
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Old July 19th, 2006   Ron Marz is offline   #24
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Next version, under Marz: Carol's inner strength has either become dependent on the Star Sapphire personality or she's suffering reaction to years of abuse. She is weak, vacillating, frightened, indecisive. In a confusing scene, it is revealed that the SS persona is growing back again, still in a murderous mood despite no longer being connected to the Predator.


Not sure where anybody got the idea I wrote Star Sapphire, but except for maybe a flashback scene, I never did. Thanks.
 
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Old July 20th, 2006   Kris is offline   #25
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Next version, under Marz: Carol's inner strength has either become dependent on the Star Sapphire personality or she's suffering reaction to years of abuse. She is weak, vacillating, frightened, indecisive. In a confusing scene, it is revealed that the SS persona is growing back again, still in a murderous mood despite no longer being connected to the Predator.


Not sure where anybody got the idea I wrote Star Sapphire, but except for maybe a flashback scene, I never did. Thanks.
ddf
Ron Marz
I'd like to show a scan, but I'm not sure where I have it...But the Unofficial Guide to the DC Universe informs me that it's

Green Lantern vol. 3 #119:
Story: "Spectre of the Past" (22 Pages)

Credits: Ron Marz (plot, script); Darryl Banks (pencils); Cam Smith (inks); Chris Eliopoulos (letters); Bob Schwager (colors, color seperations); Kevin Dooley and Bob Schreck and Mike Carlin (edits)


Feature Character: Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner)

Guest Star: Spectre II (Hal Jordan; last in JLA #35)

Supporting Characters: Jennie-Lynn Hayden, Radu Stancu; Carol Ferris, Tom Kalmaku

Villain: Dracul (Vlad Giurescu; first appearance; Radu's commanding officer in the Securitate, Romania's secret police


According to Jones' last written story about Star (in Extreme Justice?), she shouldn't have been a factor with Carol anymore. My admittedly confused understanding of the sequence of events was that it was your story decision to continue the dichotomy by...um...ending it. Just in a different way than Jones did.
 
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Old July 20th, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #26
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Next version, under Marz: Carol's inner strength has either become dependent on the Star Sapphire personality or she's suffering reaction to years of abuse. She is weak, vacillating, frightened, indecisive. In a confusing scene, it is revealed that the SS persona is growing back again, still in a murderous mood despite no longer being connected to the Predator.


Not sure where anybody got the idea I wrote Star Sapphire, but except for maybe a flashback scene, I never did. Thanks.
ddf
Ron Marz
Actually, didn't you write that story where Spectre-Hal cured her of her powers and her insanity?

EDIT: Sorry Kris, itchy reply-button finger there. That GL #119 is the one I meant.
Last edited by Ragnell; July 20th, 2006 at 03:36 AM.
 
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Old July 20th, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #27
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FYI, your history of Arisia has a typo...she was older in her planet's years, just appeared younger in Earth years, not the other way around.
ddf
John Hays
Oops, thanks for pointing that out. Meant 28 in her planet's years.

Also, if she's 28, then there's no lapse in judgement on Hal's part. The writer has already cleared this up.
ddf
Except for the other writers who treated her mentally as a 14-year-old. Gerard Jones made a point of it in the first Arisia story I ever read. Alan Moore used her as "Generic Teen Sidekick" when Tomar Re was telling stories, the guy before Englehart (Wein?) had her and Katma in a mother-daugther relationship.

If Englehart's story had been in a vacuum... Well, it'd still be squeegy because she's not supposed to be physically mature yet, but it wouldn't be so bad. But the writers who preceeded and followed him complicated matters.

If he wanted to do an "appearance doesn't matter" deal he should have gone with an Ugly-looking woman as opposed to a Young-looking one. My friend Erika's reading the back issues right now and can't stop saying "Ew" about it. Every friend I've ever tried to explain this story to (without even going into the other writer's handling of Arisia) has said it sounded like Lolita in Space.
 
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Old July 20th, 2006   Ron Marz is offline   #28
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I seem to remember a scene with Carol and Hal/Specter, but I don't recall there being any full-blown Star Sapphire stuff.

My memory could be faulty of course, but since I wasn't writing Hal for the most part, I didn't think Star Sapphire really fit in with Kyle's stories.
 
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Old July 21st, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #29
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I seem to remember a scene with Carol and Hal/Specter, but I don't recall there being any full-blown Star Sapphire stuff.
ddf
Ron Marz
It retconned something or other out from Jone's era -- which had retconned/resolved a truly awful idea from Englehart's era. I'd reread it and run it through the feminist analysis, but I think I'll spare you this one because everything since Broome and Fox stopped writing [rant mode] that uses this character has been horribly offensive in some manner or another. It's a shame, because she started out a lot of fun.

There needs to be a rule: You must pass a Women's Studies course before using Star Sapphire in any form.[/rant mode]
 
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Old July 21st, 2006   Ravenwing263 is offline   #30
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Chris man, I'm just trying to see if Soranik and GL12 has made anyone change their minds about how they view GL, let's not get into this men are treated worse than women argument here because that always turns ugly.
ddf
Ragnell
Isn't it, to some degree, a necessary argument? Prehaps not worded as "men are treated worse than women" but as "how are the men treated in comparison to the women?"

I mean, when analyzing whether or not sexism or misogyny exists in fiction, certain things must be taken into account. One is that all the characters are going to have flaws. If there are no flaws, there is no character development. Another is that bad things will happen to all the characters - if no bad things happen, then there is no conflict, and the piece is either bad sketch comedy or porn.

Thus, you can't simply say "the female characters are flawed" or "bad things happen to the female characters." The female characters ought to be flawed, and bad things ought to happen to them. The questions that determine sexism in fiction are "do the women's flaws arise naturally out of their characters or are they portrayed as inherent flaws in feminity?" "Do the women exist as characters in their own right or are they merely there to service the development/fall in love with/seduce the men?" "Do the women's flaws exist to develop their personal characters or that of their male counterparts?" "Do the bad things that happen to the women serve the larger story in the same way the bad things that happen to the men do?" "Are the bad things that heppen to the women treated as bad things that happen to the men through the women?"

Green Lantern is an especially tricky case, because, to my knowledge, no francise has ever had the kind of wholesale slaughter of supporting characters that the book witnessed in volume three.

I'm not saying absolutely that there is no sexism in the franchise, nor that there never has been. My knowledge of Green Lantern starts with Kyle Raynar, so while I think I'm qualified to discuss the Many Dead Loves of the Torchbearer, I can't really speak about Katma Tui, Arisa, or any of the Lost Lanterns. I am suggesting that a franchise that has seen so much death and depowerment over the years requires some thought about the wholesale slaughter of male characters while discussing the fates of the female characters.

Boddika got a raw deal, but was it rawer then the one Kreon got? Based mostly in heresay and exposition, I would say "no." Katma Tui got one, too. Was it rawer then the one Kilowog got? On the same basis, I'd say "yes."

It's just something to think about.
 
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Old July 21st, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #31
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Isn't it, to some degree, a necessary argument? Prehaps not worded as "men are treated worse than women" but as "how are the men treated in comparison to the women?"
ddf
Ravenwing263
On any other thread I'd agree with you and probably get into it, but I didn't want to see this one turn into 50 pages I'd have to work through to get my replies.

Of course, right now it looks like everyone who was going to answer on all 3 boards (I went to YABS too with them, for a neutral look) has answered.

The big thing about the argument, though, is that while you will come up with a longer list of male lanterns who've suffered -- it's going to part of the problem, because there are simply more male lanterns than female lanterns.

And in a franchise where the concept allows anyone to be a hero so long as they meet the necessary (and non-gender specific) qualifications, less overall female characters than male characters is definitely a mark against the franchise.
 
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Old July 21st, 2006   Ravenwing263 is offline   #32
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The big thing about the argument, though, is that while you will come up with a longer list of male lanterns who've suffered -- it's going to part of the problem, because there are simply more male lanterns than female lanterns.

And in a franchise where the concept allows anyone to be a hero so long as they meet the necessary (and non-gender specific) qualifications, less overall female characters than male characters is definitely a mark against the franchise.
ddf
Ragnell
Oh, I agree with that. I just didn't want to get into it because that's another rant about how one takes a concept from a pre-feminist era (or at least one where feminist ideals had not really taken root in the way they have begun to today) and integrates feminism in a way that is organic in the story, which leads to a discussion about whether or not the formation of the new Corps post-Green Lantern Rebirth - which was an excellent oppurtunity to do just that - was successful or not.
 
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