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Old March 1st, 2006   Lion Blade is offline   #97
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Lady Obie, you're obviously entitled to buy or not buy as you choose. But to be honest, DC doesn't see Ion's sales success or failure as having anything to do with Jade. It has to do with Kyle, and by extension, the creative team. If you're trying to send a message about Jade by passing up Ion, that message is not going to be received.

If Ion succeeds, DC isn't going to decide, "Boy, killing Jade was the right thing!" If Ion fails, DC isn't going to decide, "Oops, shouldn't have killed Jade." They just don't have anything to do with one another.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just saying the method of your protest is somewhat misguided.

Peter ... yes, Percival.
ddf
Ron Marz
Ron has a point, Lady Obie. Buying or not buying Ion won't change the status quo for Jade. Instead, you should form a petition on "Jade Ressurection" as well as prove/explain to DC that it is feasible and send all paperwork to DC. I could go into more details, but for now, it will be up to you whether you want to do this or not. If it helps, you could run a poll here for a test drive.
 
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Old March 1st, 2006   Lion Blade is offline   #98
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Grendel, I don't think we're disagreeing as much as looking at the situation from different perspectives. Superhero comics are, by their nature, about maintaining the status quo. Good guy wins, bad guy loses. To put it another way, any change is illusory. No problem with that, or with the fact that the characterizations of Superman, Batman, Spider-man, etc. need to stay consistent. They're icons.

I was speaking more to the fact that much of the market, especially now, is generally ambivalent to or outright unaccepting of anything new. Marvel and DC mainline heroes dominate the sales charts like never before. As I'm apt to say, people (readers and retailers) are more likely to keep buying a bad Batman or Spider-man comic than to try something new. To use your anology, your "cool new hero" from an independent company is likely to perish in the marketplace. Look at Image sales. A number of good books over, books with good internet buzz. And a lot of them sell 4,000 or 5,000 copies an issue, which is not sustainable.

I'm not really blaming anyone. l'm just observng that if we as an industry continue to produce material that is more than 90% superhero-oriented (in terms of copies sold), we're slowly dying. The majority of the public isn't interested in superhero comics (or comics in general, when they think comics = superheroes autmoatically). Superhero comics should absolutely be a part of the comics smorgasbord. But they're taking up more and more space on the table. Non-Big Two publishers are taking a serious sales beating from the multitude of crossover epics. And I'm not blaming the Big Two for offering up what sells.

We need diversity, but it's virtually impossible for publishers to offer it when the audience the publishers count on -- the direct market -- embraces the "same old, same old" and ignores more diverse material. Preaching to the choir pleases the choir, but maybe not the rest of the congregation. It's a chicken and egg question without a good answer.
ddf
Ron Marz
When it comes to comics, there are stereotypes about comics = superheroes. Even though there are other types of works (like Star Wars, League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Archies, etc.), people will still view comics as superhero stuff. Perhaps, that's why many fans (if you can call some of these people fans) prefer manga over comic, taking comics for granted. This is nothing against manga, since I like comics, manga, anime, and cartoons as I enjoy art and entertainment. The only reason I'm not purchasing anything at the moment is due to money issues, and even money wasn't the issue, room space would still be the issue. By the way, like several of you, I'm also not a fan of politics in any form of medium, whether it is comics, manga (yes, even in Japan there are politics, which is why Dragonball lasted for so long... poor Toriyama ), TV shows (why in the world did WB cancel Teen Titans and JLU?), videogames, books, etc. Let's face it... when politics and money talks, intelligence walks. I know it sounds too harsh, but that's why WCW suffered a cruel death.

Now, to stay in topic and to add another pro to Kyle as Ion, his stories could reveal that Hypertime still exists, showing that there is a way for the multiple Earths to be resurrected without screwing with the main DCU Earth and without causing another crisis (like CoIE, ZH, and IC).
 
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Old March 1st, 2006   John Hays is offline   #99
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Yeah, he's powerful, but is he Divine? I tend to doubt it since Kyle so far has been a down-to-earth type of guy.

Galahad is really more of a saintly, holy figure at least in the work of Malory.
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Well, until it gets published, you have him as Percival and I have him as Galahad.
 
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Old March 1st, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #100
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Well, until it gets published, you have him as Percival and I have him as Galahad.
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I always saw Kyle as Gawain. But I was introduced to Gawain with The Loathly Lady and The Green Knight long before I read Malory's nightmare version of Gawain.

It makes a great parallel to Hal's Lancelot, because Lancelot and Gawain divided the court over who was the greatest. Reading about the backbiting between the Orkneys and Lancelot's kin reminded me of the now-forbidden flame wars. Also, the fact that the two characters got along very well in Emerald Knights reinforced this, as Lancelot and Gawain got along famously until Lancelot went and killed Gareth (Who's a pretty good match for Arisia or Brik with the hero-worship). Only, instead of the Gawain-type going vengeance crazed and over the edge, it was the Lancelot-type.

You could make an argument Guy fits Gawain better, because here we see Gawain started out as a gentle and polite character and later became an irrational hothead, just like Guy Gardner. But the very same thing happened with Sir Kay the Seneschal. And Guy's been through a period of being used like Sir Kay, to show the wrong way to behave.

The crucible comment in RTW does indicate Perceval for Kyle more. Jade's death reminds me of Perceval's sister Dindrane, who died because she gave up all her blood so another woman could recover from an illness. Jade did die because she gave up her life essence to power up Kyle and try and bring a end to the mess. It's a much better parallel than Guinevere or Iseult, which is what I could come up with earlier.

Obsidian is Mordred, not only for being Alan/Arthur's son, but because they have a very similar character path. For those you who haven't read it, Mordred started out, in Le Morte D'Arthur as a good and promising character. He was training with Lancelot when he met a hermit in the woods who greeted them as the two most unfortunate knights in the world. And then he told Mordred he was the son of his uncle. Mordred lost his temper and killed the unarmed elderly man (and Lancelot scolded him, not for hurting an harmless person, but because the hermit had a prophecy for Lancelot too!) and was pretty much bad news from then on. Ian Karkull = Hermit?

Anyway, I've toyed with this parallel before. For those of you interested in my previous ramblings on the subject.
 
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Old March 1st, 2006   Sk8maven is offline   #101
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Forcing characters into paradigms that don't fit is the second-worst thing that can be done to them (the worst is to kill them off in stupid ways in service to a stupid and pointless story).

Maven
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #102
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Forcing characters into paradigms that don't fit is the second-worst thing that can be done to them (the worst is to kill them off in stupid ways in service to a stupid and pointless story).
ddf
Sk8maven
No, I disagree. Death is hardly the worst thing that can happen in comics.

The worst is when the character is written in a way that fundamentally contradicts their only redeeming characteristic. And the second worst is creating them so loaded with insulting symbolism that otherwise skilled writers are incapable of handling them in a positive light.
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   Lion Blade is offline   #103
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No, I disagree. Death is hardly the worst thing that can happen in comics.

The worst is when the character is written in a way that fundamentally contradicts their only redeeming characteristic. And the second worst is creating them so loaded with insulting symbolism that otherwise skilled writers are incapable of handling them in a positive light.
ddf
Ragnell
What do you mean by insulting symbolism, Ragnell? This is not a put down on your comment as I don't disagree with you at all, but with comic book superheroes being part of modern mythos, it is hard to identify insulting symbolism as mythology is often about symbolism. In other words, I wanted examples of this insulting symbolism, please.
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   Ragnell is offline   #104
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What do you mean by insulting symbolism, Ragnell? This is not a put down on your comment as I don't disagree with you at all, but with comic book superheroes being part of modern mythos, it is hard to identify insulting symbolism as mythology is often about symbolism. In other words, I wanted examples of this insulting symbolism, please.
ddf
Lion Blade
Well, if you're looking for symbolism it's fairly easy to tell which parts are insulting and which aren't, isn't it?

Jade's problems come down to her parents. Two powered parents. One good, one evil. Naturally, she inherits powers from, the good parent, and has to reject the evil parent. The evil parent is her mother, who could be argued to represent a lot of things in a female's story -- the feminine ideal, female-based society..etc.. The good parent, who gives her all of her power, is her father, representing masculine ideals, masculine society...etc.. Not only does Jade set out to follow in her father's path, she has to prove herself to him. So, essentially, Jade has to reject her feminity and please masculine society in order to be a worthwhile person. That's a pretty bad start right there.

Even after that, she is a female character who's elss powerful than her male counterparts, and exists mostly as an anchor to the family structure. Later on, it gets worse, because she becomes a way to tie another character to the family, through a romantic relationship. She gives up her inherited power (only hers by grace of her father) in order to protect her male friends.
This could be a good turn, where she starts to develop her mother's powers and reconnect with her inheritence from her, but instead it's turned over so that she can get her old powers back. In the form of a gift from her boyfriend.
They break up, and she loses that power. When they reconnect, she gets it back. When the boyfriend acheives ultimate power, she can get her natural abilities back -- but only through his help. Which, even before they retconned it to the Jade as an incubator for Kyle's powers (which actually makes a great deal of sense given her normal social role) I found pretty insulting.
I argue it to death over here and here, so please don't try to make me a Jade lover.

But I figure her consistantly weak portrayal leads back to her concept (how I hate the evil mother/birthmother/stepmother/adopted mother stuff!) combined with her being part of a team which never got to do anything spectacular anyway. Something hitting the subconcious of the writer.
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   WyldeWolf is offline   #105
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Well, if you're looking for symbolism it's fairly easy to tell which parts are insulting and which aren't, isn't it?
ddf
Ragnell
Bingo. I bet I could find a vendetta against anyone or anything if I'm looking for it. Bald guys, blondes, black people, white people, amputees, working class, rich, corporations, men, women, children, Hal, Kyle, Guy, John, Alan, Jade, aliens, humans....

And "weak portrayal" is par for the course when you aren't a headliner. There's a reason someone coined the phrase "supporting character". They exist to make the lead look good.
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   Sk8maven is offline   #106
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Jade's problems come down to her parents. Two powered parents. One good, one evil.
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Ragnell
We didn't know that when she started out. We didn't know that until two years later - a whole long arc of All-Star Squadron and 20 issues of Infinity Inc. later.

As far as Jade OR the readers knew until then, she was Alan Scott's daughter, period full stop, and had been raised by a perfectly nice normal pair of middle-class adoptive parents. Oh, and she had a severely neurotic twin brother that she had never seen until she turned sixteen.

Roy Thomas' original idea would have made her Alan's daughter by Molly Scott, the Golden Age Harlequin (a onetime "bad girl" long since gone good). All things considered, he probably should have stuck with it. No good at all came of foisting the twins' parentage on the GA Rose/Thorn.

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Old March 2nd, 2006   Lion Blade is offline   #107
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Well, if you're looking for symbolism it's fairly easy to tell which parts are insulting and which aren't, isn't it?

Jade's problems come down to her parents. Two powered parents. One good, one evil. Naturally, she inherits powers from, the good parent, and has to reject the evil parent. The evil parent is her mother, who could be argued to represent a lot of things in a female's story -- the feminine ideal, female-based society..etc.. The good parent, who gives her all of her power, is her father, representing masculine ideals, masculine society...etc.. Not only does Jade set out to follow in her father's path, she has to prove herself to him. So, essentially, Jade has to reject her feminity and please masculine society in order to be a worthwhile person. That's a pretty bad start right there.

Even after that, she is a female character who's elss powerful than her male counterparts, and exists mostly as an anchor to the family structure. Later on, it gets worse, because she becomes a way to tie another character to the family, through a romantic relationship. She gives up her inherited power (only hers by grace of her father) in order to protect her male friends.
This could be a good turn, where she starts to develop her mother's powers and reconnect with her inheritence from her, but instead it's turned over so that she can get her old powers back. In the form of a gift from her boyfriend.
They break up, and she loses that power. When they reconnect, she gets it back. When the boyfriend acheives ultimate power, she can get her natural abilities back -- but only through his help. Which, even before they retconned it to the Jade as an incubator for Kyle's powers (which actually makes a great deal of sense given her normal social role) I found pretty insulting.
I argue it to death over here and here, so please don't try to make me a Jade lover.

But I figure her consistantly weak portrayal leads back to her concept (how I hate the evil mother/birthmother/stepmother/adopted mother stuff!) combined with her being part of a team which never got to do anything spectacular anyway. Something hitting the subconcious of the writer.
ddf
Ragnell
Relax, Ragnell! I'm not trying to make you a Jade lover. I don't force feed my faith/religion on people, so I won't make you a lover of anything. Furthermore, I appreciate you telling me what I wanted to know. I can see why you are so upset. Psychology mythology can be freaky and frightening. The whole aspect of Jade and her backstory sounds like Electra complex. There are more things I would like to say, but those things would eventually lead up to the topic of politics in the comic industry (among other things), and the less I talk about politics, the better I feel. For now, I just want to thank you for your response... for real !
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   PeterCool is offline   #108
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Well, until it gets published, you have him as Percival and I have him as Galahad.
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Old March 2nd, 2006   PeterCool is offline   #109
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I always saw Kyle as Gawain. But I was introduced to Gawain with The Loathly Lady and The Green Knight long before I read Malory's nightmare version of Gawain.

It makes a great parallel to Hal's Lancelot, because Lancelot and Gawain divided the court over who was the greatest. Reading about the backbiting between the Orkneys and Lancelot's kin reminded me of the now-forbidden flame wars. Also, the fact that the two characters got along very well in Emerald Knights reinforced this, as Lancelot and Gawain got along famously until Lancelot went and killed Gareth (Who's a pretty good match for Arisia or Brik with the hero-worship). Only, instead of the Gawain-type going vengeance crazed and over the edge, it was the Lancelot-type.

You could make an argument Guy fits Gawain better, because here we see Gawain started out as a gentle and polite character and later became an irrational hothead, just like Guy Gardner. But the very same thing happened with Sir Kay the Seneschal. And Guy's been through a period of being used like Sir Kay, to show the wrong way to behave.

The crucible comment in RTW does indicate Perceval for Kyle more. Jade's death reminds me of Perceval's sister Dindrane, who died because she gave up all her blood so another woman could recover from an illness. Jade did die because she gave up her life essence to power up Kyle and try and bring a end to the mess. It's a much better parallel than Guinevere or Iseult, which is what I could come up with earlier.

Obsidian is Mordred, not only for being Alan/Arthur's son, but because they have a very similar character path. For those you who haven't read it, Mordred started out, in Le Morte D'Arthur as a good and promising character. He was training with Lancelot when he met a hermit in the woods who greeted them as the two most unfortunate knights in the world. And then he told Mordred he was the son of his uncle. Mordred lost his temper and killed the unarmed elderly man (and Lancelot scolded him, not for hurting an harmless person, but because the hermit had a prophecy for Lancelot too!) and was pretty much bad news from then on. Ian Karkull = Hermit?

Anyway, I've toyed with this parallel before. For those of you interested in my previous ramblings on the subject.
ddf
Ragnell
It's cool to hear from another fan of the Arthur stuff. If you want to see a really nasty Gawain, TH White's "Once and Future King shows the jealousy that Gawain had toward Lancelot" (although he had complete loyalty to Arthur). Also Modred was a really great villain and manipulator in the book.

Mary Stewart did a very sympathetic Modred in a book called "The Wicked Day" as well.

Sorry for hijacking the topic with Arthurian stuff, I'm just glad that some other people see some of the parallels as well.

In any case, the Arthurian Legend has lots of cool stories to tell about multiple knights, and there's no reason why the GLC can't do the same.
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   Jeffrey Neary is offline   #110
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Forcing characters into paradigms that don't fit is the second-worst thing that can be done to them (the worst is to kill them off in stupid ways in service to a stupid and pointless story).

Maven
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Sk8maven
Yet we are talking about fictional stories...not real life traumas..so if these things are the worst things a person can experience...they are doing quite well for themselves.

However....whether a character can fit into a paradigm or if a story is stupid and pointless is truly subjective.
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   Sk8maven is offline   #111
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The whole aspect of Jade and her backstory sounds like Electra complex.
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That would have been a better explanation for her (mis)behavior than the crud we got.

Maven
 
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Old March 2nd, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #112
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That would have been a better explanation for her (mis)behavior than the crud we got.

Maven
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