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Old December 5th, 2005   Sk8maven is offline   #49
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The "No Blaming the Writer" rule really means there can be no meaningful discussion. There was nothing wrong with Jade as a character concept - it's what's been done with her by writers that's so bad.

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Old December 5th, 2005   CD3 is offline   #50
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The "No Blaming the Writer" rule really means there can be no meaningful discussion. There was nothing wrong with Jade as a character concept - it's what's been done with her by writers that's so bad.

Maven
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Sk8maven

very good point
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   istari42 is offline   #51
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very good point
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very, very good point actually. Way to think outside the box!
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Augustine is offline   #52
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I bet it's only a matter of time before a certain writer that shall remain nameless writes a story of how Jade and Obsidian slept together hence why he's so protective over her and she's more than a bit screwed up herself at times.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Lady Obie is offline   #53
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This is why I don't base how much I like characters on what their use du jour is .

If I could not surmount blood-curdling spells of bad writing (or even mind-numbing boredom) how many fave characters would I have now?

You would be right if you guessed NONE.

Every fave character of mine has had at least one usage so brainshakingly stupid if I allowed it to I could've abandoned him/her a long time ago. And some have had several!

So I look at things this way:

a. If I see a fave used in a really cool fun story I smile & celebrate

b. If I see a fave used in a story that is a total suckfest it galvanizes my fight for them to have cool usages like I mentioned above, even if the chances of that actually happening are very slim.

I relish fighting for underdogs & who is more of an underdog than a character who's mental integrity, even physical life, can be snuffed in an instant without a comic co thinking twice about it
 
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Atom: Obie!? You call a thing like that--OBIE??

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Old December 5th, 2005   Lady Obie is offline   #54
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I bet it's only a matter of time before a certain writer that shall remain nameless writes a story of how Jade and Obsidian slept together hence why he's so protective over her and she's more than a bit screwed up herself at times.
ddf
Augustine
Considering a lot of the horsecrap comics are pandering to these days for the sake of sales it wouldn't surprise me if something like that actually sees print .

But I already tape The Young & The Restless and The Bold & The Beautiful so that's enough for me .
 
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Atom: Obie!? You call a thing like that--OBIE??

-- All-Star Squadron #25
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Old December 5th, 2005   Lady Obie is offline   #55
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The "No Blaming the Writer" rule really means there can be no meaningful discussion. There was nothing wrong with Jade as a character concept - it's what's been done with her by writers that's so bad.

Maven
ddf
Sk8maven
Let me third that and say very very very good point .

A lot of characters start out as good concepts and eventually end up in the gutter because writers either aren't sure what to do with them or decide to pander to their basest desires because that's what they think will sell.

And the sad fact is a lot of this crapola does sell, and it sells very well .

So I'll go back to making a suggestion I often proffer, based on using the greatest power we mere comic fan mortals have to influence the comic industry to do what we want: the power of $$$$.

Feel free to make this your comic buying mantra: if you like buy it, if you hate it don't buy it.

$$$$ really speak to the comics industry. Use yours to say what you want and what you don't .
 
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Atom: Obie!? You call a thing like that--OBIE??

-- All-Star Squadron #25
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Old December 6th, 2005   Ragnell is offline   #56
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ishtari42 -- Well, I'm not much of a Winnick fan myself, and wasn't impressed enough with Outsiders, so I'll take your word for it. You detailed enough to show that she is, indeed, a worthwhile member of the team. I don't think any of those feats match the power of the space lanterns, but she fits well enough in a teambook.

But I must point out that, with Kyle's history of poor confidence, his believing she's better than him is more a reflection of his own feelings about him self than an accurate assessment of Jade's abilities. Nightwing's trusting her, however, does say something for her competence I've never had the opportunity to witness. But she's still bush league, so I don't want to see her in big league books until she can match up. I'm tired of seeing her get beat up.

After a twenty-four hour period of digesting the arguments in this thread, I will concede she's not really better off dead, and I will not vomit at her next appearance, even though I'll also be seeing Donna Troy then, too. In fact, I'm looking forward to it to see what happens. I've even formulated a reason for her infidelity, outlined below.

I do suggest, if she survives, that she either stay a teambook character, or be given to Greg Rucka or Grant Morrison for a solo story to build up with impressive feats before she return to the Green Lantern cast. If she has just one Grant Morrison feat under her belt, it makes it that less harder to see her as weak and forever gives fans an argument against a weak portrayal.

She also needs to stop dating men who remind her of her father -- 2 blondes and a Lantern. You know that's how she's picking them, and is jsut being too superficial about it.

The "No Blaming the Writer" rule really means there can be no meaningful discussion. There was nothing wrong with Jade as a character concept - it's what's been done with her by writers that's so bad.
ddf
Sk8maven
I'll be the lone voice of dissent here. As a character concept she doesn't have a good basis to become a strong female character. She's brought into the superhero game through inherited powers from her father, not through her own skills. She has a legacy background of a heroic, but distant father, and an insane, villainous mother. Her strongest relationship on the team is with her twin brother, a close male relative. Severe psychiatric problems on her maternal side. She's a teambook female, which makes her automatic romance fodder. She starts out her existence defined by her relationships to others. She ahs a loving relationship with her brother, a reason to admire her father, and a reason to be deeply ashamed of her mother.

This is not a good beginning for a female character, I'm sorry.

Sure, she could have turned into a strong female lead character, but her basic concept left too many chances to turn her into a weak supporting character, or even a villainess down the line. Every twist and turn we've seen the writers take (with the exception of the retconned sexual abuse which no one has mentioned ever since) has been a natural turn for a character with her intitial concept. And, bear in mind, I'm getting this character progression off the ideas outlined in this thread:

(BtW, this is my Explanation for the Cheating Thing so some of you might be interested)

Jenny starts out as a bright optimistic heroine from a supportive adoptive family, and finds her true family, described above. That's quite a shock.
She follows the hero road for a while, even gets to dating Green Lantern, when we hit the next huge event in her life -- the Heart of Darkness story. There, the only stable member of her biological family turns instable, and her beloved brother turns even more unstable. She stops them, but at the expense of what makes her most valuable to her relations -- the powers that allow her to be a hero.
Suddenly, she's gone from easily powerful to strange-colored girl. Her boyfriend, feeling bad, leaves her with a ring, but there's enough of a difference she doesn't do as well as she does with her natural powers, and gets beaten up and needs to be saved. Which has to be a major blow to her pride.
Later on, after a break-up and reconciliation, she finds herself with Kyle, agrees to marry him, and again becomes his equal partner in heroics -- until he gains ultimate power and starts freaking her out.
Then he gives her the wonderful gift of her natural powers back, and expects them to live happily ever after. Of course, deep down inside the fact that she couldn't get her powers back on her own must have damaged her pride.
But they're still happy -- until he gets fed up with people and wants to go to space.
She naturally goes with him, but gets so homesick and stressed out that apparently she's late and suspects she might be pregnant. It's a false alarm, though, and she realizes that this nice guy who has given her so much is not worth staying in outer spacefor. So, he escorts her home, and then takes off to fight off-world evil.
She tells him "go ahead," still feeling too indebted to him to ask him to stay for her, and starting to feel generally crappy about not loving him as much as he loves.
While he's gone, and doesn't call, she starts to actively resent him, and then resent herself for it. And, when prompted by Merayn and Radu (How could you, Radu?!) to try for a guy that seems her type (reminds her of her idolized father), on a whim she gives him her number. And hates herself for it.
She dates the guy, resenting Kyle for being gone, and herself for behaving this way, but it's a complicated way of asserting her independance from Kyle -- who has helped her so much in the past her pride is wounded, a wound compounded by her own self-hatred when she finds she feels anything but gratitude and love towards Kyle -- who, it turns out, is just another relationship she fell into because she was reminded of her father ("So day I'll have a guy, just like the guy, who married, dear old mom..." Make all the Freud jokes you want, it's still a common and perfectly acceptable way to measure a mate -- How does he compare to Dad?). She doesn't really love him romantically, she was just mixing up feelings of gratitude, admiration, and lust with real love.
So, when the guy turns out to be a jerk who cheated on her, she continues to date him -- To punish herself for not loving Kyle and acting on it; and because she expects the nasty scene in Homecoming to happen when Kyle gets back. A scene like that would be a surefire way to make Kyle stop loving her without having to admit to him she doesn't love him. It would hurt him badly, but she's on that road already anyway.
And when it's all said and done, she still feels like crap about. Which makes her moody whenever she gets reminded about Kyle.

Which also makes her a likely candidate for a heroic sacrifice, though. But I won't seek out Dave Gibbons to vomit on his shoes if she survives, like I vowed earlier.

Anyway, doesn't that seem like a natural character progression to you guys? Do we really have to say "the writers wrote her out of character" to excuse her behavior? We can say "the writers took the lower path with her" yes, but after all of your arguments in her favor, I don't think they took her out of her personality.

And if they had taken the high road, I'd still consder her very concept flawed, but for feminist reasons.

(And now's the time to leave if you don't want to hear more blasted feminist propaganda, by the way)

If you notice, the strongest male heroes have strong father images to model themselves after (Superman -- both Pa Kent and Jor-El; Spiderman -- Uncle Ben; Batman; Jay Garrick; Hal Jordan; even Kyle Rayner's Deadbeat Dad was retconned into a noble fugitive), and the strongest female characters have inspiring mothers (Black Canary, Wonder Woman). Jade has a terrible biological mother figure. And, however supportive her adoptive mother may be, Jade is entering the world of her biological parents. It is they who are now more prominent, they who will have the most bearing on her life. She's opted to follow her genes, not her heart.

Now, one she's on that road, she hits a fork. Her mother's past can make her weaker, or stronger. Even if she takes the road to become stronger in spite of a weak mother, she's still not going to make it into a Kathleen Ragan collection. Because she is a child of a hero and a villainess, she has to reject her mother in favor of her father to be heroic.

Jade, by her very character concept, has to reject her feminity in order to be heroic.

And before you shout "she's still feminine" let me clarify -- I'm not saying she's dropping her voice two octaves and trying on boxers. It's symbolic. She cuts her maternal ties, the feminine tradition, and sends the message that the masculine tradition, her father and her brother, are much more important.

Please tell me I'm not the only person here who sees a problem with this message.
 
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Old December 6th, 2005   Amentep is offline   #57
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Anyway, doesn't that seem like a natural character progression to you guys?
ddf
Ragnell
Nope, it doesn't; not to me at any rate. For one thing, your description of her as being defined by her relationship with her brother seems a bit odd, since IIRC, she didn't know about her brother at all until their powers manifested. She also pretty much seemed to be the leader in that relationship; it'd be much more accurate, IMO, to say that Obsidian was - early on - defined by his sister.

But maybe that's just me...

If you notice, the strongest male heroes have strong father images to model themselves after (Superman -- both Pa Kent and Jor-El; Spiderman -- Uncle Ben; Batman; Jay Garrick; Hal Jordan; even Kyle Rayner's Deadbeat Dad was retconned into a noble fugitive), and the strongest female characters have inspiring mothers (Black Canary, Wonder Woman). Jade has a terrible biological mother figure. And, however supportive her adoptive mother may be, Jade is entering the world of her biological parents. It is they who are now more prominent, they who will have the most bearing on her life. She's opted to follow her genes, not her heart.
ddf
I find it odd that Superman can have a positive role-model in his adopted dad, Pa Kent, and yet Jade's adoptive mother can't be considered the same for her. Maybe its just me, but it seems like you're applying one standard to Superman and one to Jade?

Further, somehow because Jade's biological parents are Hero and Villain they are more important to her development as a character than the people who raised her - despite the fact that she didn't meet her heroic father until she was an adult (ditto her mom, IIRC)!

It seems like you've built up an artificial dichotomy to me.
 
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Old December 6th, 2005   Sk8maven is offline   #58
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Not too bad, Ragnell, except for one thing: she never agreed to marry Kyle. He offered her a Green Lantern ring with strings attached - as an engagement ring. (Talk about manipulative!) Jennie declined the gambit, and accepted the ring but NOT his proposal. (The whole "gaybashing of Terry" storyline happened immediately afterward and distracted the readers.)

All things considered, maybe Roy Thomas should have stuck with his original impulse and made Jade and Obie Alan's kids by Molly. Obie for sure, and Jade for probable, would have been a lot more stable - because Molly is a fairly stable and well-grounded person (those teenaged adventures in half-hearted villainy are a LONG way behind her). It would have taken a lot more setup and explanation, though, and a heaping helping of either timewarps or some kind of magic.

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Old December 6th, 2005   Joshua Pantalleresco is offline   #59
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Yeah, but in many ways, Pa Kent is Superman's father. Superman knows no one else in that role...even after his heritage was revealed it wasn't like he really met his dad. In contrast, Jade and Obsidian both knew they were orphans. Jade especially considering her skin color would definitely feel that isolation.

Ragnell has a good explanation for her behavior...we'll have to see R/T special I guess for more.

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Old December 6th, 2005   Sk8maven is offline   #60
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I find it odd that Superman can have a positive role-model in his adopted dad, Pa Kent, and yet Jade's adoptive mother can't be considered the same for her. Maybe its just me, but it seems like you're applying one standard to Superman and one to Jade?
ddf
Amentep
On the other hand, we know ALL ABOUT Pa and Ma Kent - but Julian and Myrna Hayden are shadowy ciphers. They haven't figured in ANY story involving Jen since Infinity Inc. #4 (and that was a flashback). Maybe the Shadow Demons DID get them - and the shock started Jen off the rails?

Further, somehow because Jade's biological parents are Hero and Villain they are more important to her development as a character than the people who raised her - despite the fact that she didn't meet her heroic father until she was an adult (ditto her mom, IIRC)!
ddf
That's the way she's been played all along, unfortunately. No writer cares about her boring ordinary nice non-powered adoptive parents, even though they're the ones who made her what she is.

The only reason Obie's adoptive parents have gotten as much play as they have is that they contributed heavily to how messed-up he is: Shirley Rice by leaving and taking his little brother with her (we've never heard of either of them again), Jim Rice by being physically and emotionally abusive. Even their adoption of him included a cruel twist: they could afford to adopt him but not his twin sister. (That seems to be why Jen was raised as an only child, despite the Haydens' obvious ability to afford two - her brother was already taken by the time they saw her.)

Maven
 
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Old December 6th, 2005   Sk8maven is offline   #61
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I wonder what Ragnell would have thought about the original Earth-2 Huntress? Talk about being defined by your parents and favoring the male over the female....

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Old December 6th, 2005   Amentep is offline   #62
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In contrast, Jade and Obsidian both knew they were orphans. Jade especially considering her skin color would definitely feel that isolation.
ddf
Joshua Pantalleresco
I may be remembering wrongly - its been ages since I read the relevant issues - but I was under the impression that originally Jade didn't turn green until her power manifested when she was a teenager and she could "turn it on and off" leaving only the green "star birthmark" on her hand as the only indication that she wasn't a "normal" person.

I believe this was retconned with the "abused in the orphanage storyline", which could raise a point about the writing the character's recieved.

Anyhow, my point in bringing up the comparison to Superman and Pa Kent is that in the begining Jade AFAIK tell from reading II at the time, was supposed to have had a normal, non-abused, loving childhood which in turn had made her a well-adjusted adult. Jade was the "normal" character in II.

Fury and Silver Scarab had both had the privledge and pressure of being the children of superheroes; Nuklion was a bit of an outsider, not a blood relative of a hero and plagued with self doubt; Brainwave Jr. was the kid of a villain; Obsidian had had the trying childhood of abuse; Norda was technically from an alien culture.

Jade was the reader's way into the characters in II, a person who had had an ordinary, everyday life but who had found she had an extraordinary heritage that she wanted to live up to. She was the person the audience had the most in common with, and so was the "window" character on the world of second generation heroes.

And I think that's where her character worked. Making her a "messed up" character with a "troubled past" is only part of a continuing problem, IMO, that completely misses the point of the character and takes her from being the most sympathetic character in II to the least sympathetic in whatever book she pops up in these days, IMO.
 
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Old December 6th, 2005   rex tyler is offline   #63
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Ragnell - <snip> As a character concept she doesn't have a good basis to become a strong female character. She's brought into the superhero game through inherited powers from her father, not through her own skills. She has a legacy background of a heroic, but distant father, and an insane, villainous mother.

Except for the 'insane' mother, this could apply to Rick Tyler. And it seems like most fans think he has improved as a character through the years.

I don't think it's the origin, or what had the character is dealt, it's what writers do with it.

Like I said, Jade was just fine in I.I. It's in the last decade that she's been kind of blah.
 
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Old December 6th, 2005   TJLamb0518 is offline   #64
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Has anyone suggested forming JEAT yet?
 
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