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Old December 4th, 2005   Ragnell is offline   #33
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Okay, istari42 first -- Do you understand I wouldn't hate her if she were a male character?

Sk8maven, istari42, Kid Lantern, and Argent all cheated and Blamed the Writer, but when you took that away they had good points anyway.
we had good points, but are you really trying to understand. Or are you dead set in your thinking of i dislike jade?
ddf
istari42

Well, I understand that blaming the writer doesn't help, because it doesn't wipe away the continuity, or the fact that at least 4 writers have seized on the same characterization of her. You need to work with what I ahve to work with, the post-crisis body of Jade appearances.

And yes, I am am fairly attached to disliking her. I should have warned... Well, actually, I started this thread with that warning, didn't I? I hate her, and it will be very hard to make me like her, but I do want to -- if only because she keeps popping up in books I like.

Of course, it doesn't help that you are arguing one of the items on my list of reasons I hate her, as a reason I should accept and love her. I am trying to understand, believe me, but your primary defense of her being a second stringer amounts to "Not everyone can be a good Green Lantern." If you'll forgive the real life comparison here, maybe you can understand where I'm coming from. It's a job, you understand. Its like saying "Not everyone can be a good repairmen." And where I work, when I see a shift, or a crew with one female who can't do the job as well as the males, do you know what pops up? "Women don't know electronics" Its is total BS, and completely unfair, but that's what happens, and it makes me hate both genders in my new office. But mostly I hate the female who's giving me a bad name because she's in a job she can't do.

Well, its unfortunate, but jade, being only ever in a team book, or in conjunction with another GL, is just that, a 2nd stringer. Now I heart me some jade, but she could not be better than kyle.
ddf
istari42
Yes, but you're completely missing my point. A character can be a second stringer, yet not always be the damsel-in-distress. Donna Troy got her butt saved by him a few times, yes, but from what I read she always got a decent showing -- her helping him was more of the norm until she lost her powers. Jade, on the other hand, played damsel-in-distress more often than heroic helper even when she was powered up!

And it would not bother me at all that she's a second stringer, or even the damsel in distress, if she weren't the most prominent female in the mythos.
Don't you see, everythign I mentioned combines combines -- Because of her family connections, and being based on Earth, she will always be the most prominent female in the Green Lantern books. Even though, because any other females are Oan Lanterns, she is the least powerful. Even though, every time I see her she is either dealing with chump change villains, or unable to handle the majors. She will still always be the most prominent woman.

And when she does get enough of a power upgrade, she's still extremely unimpressive. They didn't even let her fill in in the JLA. So, while she's at his power, with twice his experience, she plays damsel in distress. No, they weren't going to make her seem better than Kyle, but would any other character have come off that badly? Sure, Fatality's killed Senior Lanterns before, but they either had a yellow weakness or no working power rings.


Now, I don't mind Damsel-in-distress -- that's fine for Lois Lane. But Jade has power.

I don't mind female heroes having less power than the males -- that's fine for Power Girl next to Superman. Of course, Karen doesn't often play damsel-in-distress.

And I don't mind unpleasent female personalities -- Emma Frost, anyone? Of course, she has the power to back up her attitude.

A combination of all 3 is painful to watch, but doesn't necessarily call for death: An unpleasant personality who has lesser power than any of the males and plays damsel in distress often. Umm... I must just be blanking on anyone else this bad.

It's when you add those 3 bad traits, to the facts that she is Alan's daughter and the only female Lantern attached to earth -- because that makes her the most prominent female in the franchise, and likely to get more panel time than any better female characters. For ten years it meant she was the only woman we saw.

Right now, I'm leaning towards rooting for her death, because that frees them up to bring in a different female and make her just as prominent.

if you need a 100% positive role model then look to women who have there own books. ie wonder woman.
ddf
istari42
Or Power Girl, or Lois Lane, or Black Canary, or Stargirl, or Donna Troy (I also despise her, but I have to admit she's a second stringer who doesn't get shown as lesser than her male counterparts), or Brik or Soranik (who are second string players in this very franchise who haven't been shown to accomplish much, but they will never get as much panel-time Jade does). All team players or supporting characters who have flaws, yet enough positive to outweigh their flaws.

And Wonder Woman wasn't always well-written, wasn't always portrayed positively, and wasn't often as entertaining as Green Lantern. Remember, when Marz was writing Green Lantern, John Byrne was writing Wonder Woman, and I am not a John Byrne fan.

Jade is powerful and can handle her own. Where is your proof she can't?
ddf
istari42
That I've never seen proof that she can. She's a moderately powerful character in a franchise where even the second string is at A-list power. Again, she's the most prominent. That is a problem. Back to my real-life example above about the girl in the office who doesn't name electronics and makes a bad name for the rest of us.

And then causes me to have a bad reputation because I'm cranky to men who make the assumption I don't know what I'm doing.

Also, there's the playground example:
"I wanna play Green Lantern, too!"
"Okay, but since you're a girl you've gotta be Jade."
"Okay, what's Jade do?"
"She gets in trouble, and I get to save her!"

*Shudder*

why despise? real feelings can work there way through. stuff like that happens in real life. Super couple might be the only way. Plus it ties up the old skool gl with the new gl corps. heck her magic based powers might change with magic as we know it in the dcu changing? Could emerald sparks again fly? I, for one would not despise it, but would give it a chance. writers do your thing!!!
Actually, Kyle's past lends towards super-couple being the only way for him, but there are two very good reasons no writer should ever put him and Jade back together.
ddf
istari42
1) The cheating thing.
2) She is known to be a lesser hero in power and skill. It's an unequal relationship. Better would be the relationship of equals Katma Tui and John Stewart had, but when Jade was at equal power with Kyle she made a poor showing, and will always be inferior to him. It would be one thing is Jade wasn't a super-hero, but she is. It's just no fun to watch her get the guy.
3) It adds to her [rominence, which I think, again, is too much.

Again, I loathe Donna, but I'd actually prefer her and Kyle together again than Jade and Kyle. (Ideal would be Kyle + Corpswoman)


please don't hate, but understand.
ddf
istari42
Again, understand this: As long as she remains alive, she will be the most prominent female character in Green Lantern. Golden Age connection, natural powers, Earth character. Katma Tui, by all rights, should be, but Katma was killed, and Jade still lives.

Alex DeWitt, wonderful personality, no powers. Killed. Yet Jade still lives.

That's ultimately what bothers me. Far more positive female characters (second-string heroes and non-powered support) attached to this very franchise have been offed, but Jade lives and becomes less likeable with every appearance. She may have started out as a positive character, but she no longer is.

Even the "second string" Green Lanterns should be able to hold their own, but I see no evidence Jade can. So, rather than have her continue to be the prominent female in the group, I'd much prefer her pushed aside so that a more competent GL can get the panel time. We could have a female who may not be as star, but who is still an equal member of the team.

I'm not saying they should all be of equal popularity, but look at the Oan Lanterns this way -- The Guardians are building a force of 7200 out of the entire universe. Are they going to want 7000 Jades, and 200 Kyle or Hals?
No. They want as many good people as possible. Every single Corpsmen, even the unpopular ones who are never used, should be able to handle at least as much as Kyle or John in the first two or three years of their stories. They are equal in power. No, not everyone's going to be able to handle an exploding sun, fight off Parallax, or survive against Sinestro alone. But Fatality is no Sinestro. Neither are those villains the Outsiders are up against.

Now, there are some beautiful arguments in this thread in favor of Jade, don't get me wrong, but your second stringer angle just helps to cement my hatred of her even more.
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   ConnorFan is offline   #34
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Jade's personality isnt very good, she isnt the fantastic compassionate person that be latched on to during times of crisis, and she isnt a fiery vixen we can love to hate, she blends into a story, the character doesnt really stand out as a distinct personality.

She becomes part of the situation instead of really being in control of the situation. Even when she does try and shape things it really doesnt come off as believable.

I dont know her from her time in Infinity Inc so I cant really speak to that, but having seen alot of her other appearences my basic impression is that she is the flip side of her brother Todd.

Obsidien was weak and unstable and his powers dictated who he became.

Jade is weak and unstable( in the sense she doesnt really have a steady personality that thrives) and she always seems to be lesser because of her powers.

Her powers have only rarely been a focus, she isnt controlled so much by her powers as her lack of personal strenght seems to be taking away from her power.

The only times I really thought she stepped up was when she faced off against the Starheart, and when she faced her father's instablity alongside Connor Hawke and I think that was largely because she didnt think about it in both of those situations she just acted.

She's not so much a bad character but she's a character that has yet to really have a defining moment imo. She needs a story, a moment where she really has to seize the day and stick with it.

Her pulse power isnt as strong as a GL ring imo, and I think she was trying to use her ring like her pulse power and it was like trying to have superman fly a plane because he has been flying(naturally) for so long.

I'd say Jade's powers are on the level of a Darkstar's but she really hasnt consistantly used them fully. So she is basically operating at half Darkstar level which is hardly where she needs to be if she is fighting GL level foes.

Most characters in comics have a moment, whether it be in tragdy or triumph where the reader can say Here is what makes this character, what makes that man or woman a superhero, sometimes it is tied to the origin of the character other times it isnt, I think Jade's is a long time coming.

And until then imo the jury is still out.
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   curiouswanderer is offline   #35
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That is a good point as well. Writers may be doing these kind of things to try to simplify Jen's personality when in reality she would be better served by having more depth .

Sure she could continue being tough & a real bitch but why not have some writer give us her motivation for that, like say she's tough and always in control because deep down she's really scared due to all the instability in her early life and fighting the fear things will spiral out of control again (& this also could help explain her extreme reactions when her teammates were hurt and endangered in various issues of Outsiders). It's easy to put on a brave face when you want to cover up a great deal of fear !
ddf
Lady Obie
See, there's the problem in your second sentence...
Writers may be doing these kind of things to try to simplify Jen's personality when in reality she would be better served by having more depth
ddf
My arguement is that this will not happen as long as Winnick has her. He did some amazing things with Exiles while he was on that series, but since has done little to merit my praise. One thing is that he writes out of plot (or event) and not characterization. The event that is happening is what motivates the characters...it is that which moves them from point A to point B. And while that is basically what needs to happen, there is no affect to the character. It was oh so breifly touched upon in Grace's story, but where there was some tremendous opportunity for character building and relations (Starfire-also a child slave) You could basically take any character and throw them in with no change in reaction. The story should be 'How would Jade react to this situation?' or 'How would Grace react to this situation?' and neither of those reactions should be the same because they have vastly different backgrounds. Unfortunately, there is no reaction. Is that about as clear as mud?
There are writers who manage both, but unfortunately...Judd hasn't on this book. He does nothing to build on or when he does, he simply leaves it behind (Grace's story). And for this reason, we will never see any character development with Jade or anyone in Outsiders for that matter. (This isn't just a problem with Judd by any means, he's just the current target right now.)
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   istari42 is offline   #36
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Well I e-mailed Judd the link to this thread, so we'll see if he can shed some light on how he thinks of jade. If he gets a chance.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   istari42 is offline   #37
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Hey that guy brought up the starheart battle. Totally forgot about that. That was some fine godlike superheroics done by jade. Was that becuase the story and the power more closley related to her and her fathers magical/goldenage origins? Maybe! Maybe thats why she was portrayed as such a strong character in that mini. See she is good, just...her origins and powers are working against her. And please, were gonna play green lantern, so you have to be jade, and suck! Thats not what would happen. Becuase the kids on the playground wouldnt even know who jade was and would chose a more prominent character in the dcu. That like saying were gonna play nijna turtles and you have to be april. Playing green lantern means ur playing the dcu. Thats it. stop hating becuase you think that female characters of lesser statute means doom for all of woman kind. Unfortunatly the comics genre is more men based. Its getting more woman friendly for sure, buts its not up to that level. When the justice league is mostly women, then you can complain about the one woman in the gl franchise not being as good. She holds her own. Green lanterns gets smacked around some. In comics and tv cartoons. Its no fun to have a crazy omnipotent power ring who can save everyone. So on team books especially she gets knocked down a bit. do i agree with it, no, but i still like her character. I wish gl's ripped people apart ato mby atom, but that doesnt stop me from liking them. Of course as readers we can sit and critique what the gl's did, and what their power could've done. Thats not a fight we can win dear. I'll be back with more when i re-read her stories, and the outsiders. Looking for your response.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   mmk123 is offline   #38
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having breezed through the past 3 pages of threads, I do agree that Jade has not always been protrayed accurately all of the time, however, she has definitely faired the best out of all of the heroes who were part of Infinity Inc (not counting POwer Girl-who was only a part time member at best). I just appreciated the fact that she was used over the years and we got to see her. I loved thefact that Ron Marz used her when he wrote Green Lantern, even though he messed up her back story considerably. I thought that Judd has handled her pretty well and consistantly though. He (and Ron) at least gave her a personality. Even though ROy THomas created her, she pretty much acted the same through the entire run of Infinity Inc. I do wish that someone would explore more the power that she inherited from her mother (the Thorn). That aspect of her could be interesting to see and shoulld not be forgotten.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Argent is offline   #39
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There really is no point in Judd responding to this thread unless he's in a position to write more stories with Jade. Even then he doesn't need to respond except by writing some really good Jade stories that lay some of the stated issues to rest in a positive and satisfying manner.

Ultimately it is only what gets published on the page that matters.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Ragnell is offline   #40
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rex tyler -- You make a pretty good argument. But she's had years to get over those shocks by now. Actually, Solomon hasn't been seen near her in long time. Its one thing for her to be flawed after her tough life, and I suppose you could empathize, but it's like any positive traits have phased out over the last few years. I mean, a lot female characters are flawed, but they have enough redeeming qualities to make you sympathetic to them.

GLGypsy -- Good point on #2. That might be one of the things I get the inferiority impression from. Her constructs aren't as strong or tough as Hal's and Kyle's, and aren't anywhere near as complex as Kyle and John's. Nice ideas, too. Those are her best appearances, when she's playing the devoted daughter.

Earth-2 vs Post-Crisis -- I don't think I have any pre-Crisis Infinity Inc issues, actually. If Post-Crisis has screwed her up so badly, maybe there's an opportunity to undo that in the current crossover.

Sk8maven -- Maybe her supportive parents disappeared with the Crisis? Once the Earths merged and time was rewritten in Zero Hour, they never met, and she got adopted by someone else? Or, of course, Thorn might have killed them. Cheating on Kyle could be explained away, but hasn't been so far. As Argent said, it's what's on the page that matters.
I do like the idea that blonde guy is actually a behavior-altering nastie playing with her. Maybe one of Alan's enemies? Or someone hired by Major Force to help him track down Kyle before Homecoming? Or, dare I say it, Jade gets her own nemesis and moves on to become an equal/pull her own weight in the Lantern mythos? There are enough clues dropped if a writer wants to pick it up.

Lady Obie -- Yeah, I remember Underworld Unleashed. How far Molly fell from the bright playful redhead who actually got kicked out of the Injustice Society! And I think, aside from a scene during the Identity Crisis tie-in, that's the last time we saw her! Best chance for Alan's family would be to shelve her and the twins until a writer who actually wants to do something fun and constructive, with them as protagonists, wants them. But, again, Jade's the only female GL and she's got GA connections, in addition to old romance ties with Kyle, so I can't see them leaving her alone.

Sure she could continue being tough & a real bitch but why not have some writer give us her motivation for that, like say she's tough and always in control because deep down she's really scared due to all the instability in her early life and fighting the fear things will spiral out of control again
ddf
LadyObie
Would be interesting, but maybe reveal that in a storyline that leads to her softening up a bit again?

That's the problem in a nutshell. It's been a very, VERY long time since she was a character instead of a convenient plot device.
ddf
Sk8maven
A danger for all supporting characters, actually. But there was a slow decline that seems to me starteed with her losing her powers in Heart of Darkness and took ehr to the point where it actually seemed reasonable she'd cheat on Kyle. It's very likely moody now because she feels like utter crap about it. But, that puts her up a notch for the "heroic sacrifice" in the RTW Special, if she wants to redeem herself for a really bad mistake.

ConnorFan -- You've outlined a good excuse for her low power and linked it with her ineptitude, while leaving hope that she can evolve into a decent female character someday. I am truly impressed, and see a good reaosn to keep her around until some writer has an idea how to bring her past that. Some late coming-of-age story.
Unfortunately, not only does she need a power-up and training from that story, but a personality transplant as well. She can't have one or the other if they're so connected, she needs the whole package upgrade. It almost makes her worth watching for in IC just to see if she can get it, then, or is just there to die off.

Heart of Darkness -- The Starheart story. Yeah, I read that. As I recall, she got a major power boost and skimpy little outfit that enabled her to easily dispatch her corrupted brother, and then totally lost her powers. I understand that I'm tough to please, but come on, guys.
Or am I completely messing up the plot? It's been a while since I read it (my sister's copy) and I didn't really like it enough to buy it for myself.

Argent -- Yeah, but a writer who's handled her could give another point of view of why she's behaving the way she is, or it could convince him to spend a little more time on her, making her sympathetic.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Ragnell is offline   #41
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Yes, I know I'm an unreasonable harpy, thank you all for still talking to me,

Now, istari42 --

Hey that guy brought up the starheart battle. Totally forgot about that. That was some fine godlike superheroics done by jade. Was that becuase the story and the power more closley related to her and her fathers magical/goldenage origins?
ddf
Umm... I thought it was because of the power-increase she got in-story. Didn't she suck up pretty much the entire Starheart?

Maybe! Maybe thats why she was portrayed as such a strong character in that mini.
ddf
She stepped up to bat, and did knock it out of the park there. But it's like an Ion or Parallax feat, the bat was corked. It's still the exception rather than the rule, and she's struck out so often since most everyone forgets the story, and the character strength she's shown then seemed to have leaked away.

See she is good, just...her origins and powers are working against her.
ddf
Well, then it's a good thing she lost them at the end of that story.

And please, were gonna play green lantern, so you have to be jade, and suck! Thats not what would happen. Becuase the kids on the playground wouldnt even know who jade was and would chose a more prominent character in the dcu.
ddf
Maybe not now, but in five years or so when they put out a GL cartoon or movie, who knows how prominent Jade will be. In all likelihood, when they make a Green Lantern movie, they'll want a female Lantern. If we're lucky, they'll use Katma, who cares if she's alive or dead in the comics. But, for the most prominent female in the mythos right now, Jade's even eclipsed Carol.

Of coruse, they could pull a JLU move and redo her personality, make her an Oan Lantern, and have her be competent -- in which case, hey, that's great.

But anyway, I was using the example as a metaphor. As comic book readers, a lot of us are basically big kids. We're playing with these characters. We're getting vicarious wish fulfillment here. And, Jade's not really a fun character to put yourself in the shoes of. It basically comes down to the childhood problem having to play the weakest character in the game because you're a girl. I didn't like it then, I don't like it now.

That like saying were gonna play nijna turtles and you have to be april.
ddf
Which also sucks. It's also like playing King Arthur and having to be Guinevere (I can't be the only little girl who volunteered to be the evil sorceress), or Spider-Man and having to be Mary Jane.

stop hating becuase you think that female characters of lesser statute means doom for all of woman kind. Unfortunatly the comics genre is more men based. Its getting more woman friendly for sure, buts its not up to that level. When the justice league is mostly women, then you can complain about the one woman in the gl franchise not being as good. She holds her own.
ddf
That's a bit of hyperbole. I don't think lesser stature females mean the doom of womankind, and I'nm sorry I gave such a militant impression. But, the truth is unless a less powerful woman has a very likeable personality or adds soemthing else unique and valuable to the book, I find them a lot less fun -- so I don't really follow them.
And when they are the only prominent character in a franchise I'm very fond of, and they continually pop up in books I'd otherwise like, I start to hate them. This is what happened with Jade.

If you want to get into the women in pop culture debate, you can pull me into it fairly easily, because it is a fascinating subject from all angles. I'm just not sure anyone else on the board would appreciate the argument.

And before you answer again, you need to understand something:
This is the way seeing the character makes me feel. That is why I started the the thread. I disliked the character to the point her appearance is souring otherwise wonderful stories. That is a major problem, and I asked for help with it
I outlined the reasons I feel this way for all of you. I also laid down on the table that I am stubborn, and very strongly dislike her. I believe I specifically mentioned that a lot of arguments for her would match my personal arguments against her. One of those is you "She's a second stringer, be understanding" argument. Lack of skill and power is not a positive character trait. It never will be. It's actually a trait that desperately needs to be redeemed by a character adding something else of value. At least G'Nort was funny.
So, I strongly suggest you drop that angle, because reminding me of it is actually making me more resistant to the other arguments brought up in the thread

Green lanterns gets smacked around some. In comics and tv cartoons. Its no fun to have a crazy omnipotent power ring who can save everyone. So on team books especially she gets knocked down a bit. do i agree with it, no, but i still like her character. I wish gl's ripped people apart ato mby atom, but that doesnt stop me from liking them.
ddf
But, GLs don't really get knocked about all that often, not by low-powered foes. They get knocked down by firkin' ridiculously powerful foes, or foes with telepathic offenses that keep them from properly concentrating on the ring, or foes that steal their rings.

And I don't mind them not ripping people apart atom by atom, again, but it bugs me that Jade, the only female, is usually shown at a considerably lower level than the five male Lanterns. She comes across as incompetent, and no I will not blame the writers for that, because it's become her standard character. Decent showings like the Starheart minis are abherrations.

Of course as readers we can sit and critique what the gl's did, and what their power could've done.
ddf
Which is actually hours and hours of enjoyment. If only we didn't have to go to work, we could analyze forever!

Thats not a fight we can win dear.
ddf
Did you just call a feminist "dear?"

I'll be back with more when i re-read her stories, and the outsiders
ddf
Just so long as you change your attack plan this time!
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Flying-Grayson is offline   #42
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lol You know what? When I started reading this thread, I was pretty much indifferent to Jade. All I've read of her is in the Outsiders, where she does not get paid much attention, so I didn't know much about her other than her being Alan Scott's daughter, Kyle's ex-girlfriend, and a former member of Infinity Inc.

She never came across as particularly interesting or likeable in Outsiders(though that could mostly be attributed the lack of development she's received at the hands of Winick), but now, having learned much about her past, I gotta say I'm really disliking what I'm seeing. The whole 'betraying Kyle Rayner and cheating on him with a total jerk' thing really doesn't sit well with me.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Adam Jones is offline   #43
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I was always indifferent to Jade, too, though I did like her with Kyle, cuz he's one of my favorite characters, and it was nice to see him happy, but after that cheating thing, and just going through a similar episode with a girl myself... I hope she gets the bloodiest death in Infinite Crisis. Take that Becca... I mean, Jade!
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Atom is offline   #44
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And the "cheating on Kyle" thing could always be explained away via the Psycho-Pirate or some other mind-manipulator. I'd prefer the Pirate, though, because he does have a history with Jade (even if it's pre-Crisis) and he is just that kind of a sadistic emotional manipulator.

Maven
ddf
Sk8maven
Maven,

Considering that the biggest gripe I have with the character was the cheating thing, I really LIKE your idea! Of course, it could be any number of mental manipulators out there in the DCU. Heck, she's an easy target. Not like she hides her secret ID from anyone anymore (not since that cool Infinity Inc, where she changed the color of her skin to adopt a more secret id.

If DC could find some way to back out that awful plotting of Jade as the cheater, I'd probably find a way to enjoy her appearances again.

Of course, another option would be to write her in such a way that she apologizes in a manner that proves she knew she made a mistake and that she completely owns up to it. Not likely to happen, considering that at the time, she certainly didn't seem to act like she was making a mistake, but stranger things have happened.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Ravenwing263 is offline   #45
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2) She is known to be a lesser hero in power and skill. It's an unequal relationship. Better would be the relationship of equals Katma Tui and John Stewart had, but when Jade was at equal power with Kyle she made a poor showing, and will always be inferior to him. It would be one thing is Jade wasn't a super-hero, but she is. It's just no fun to watch her get the guy.
ddf
Actually, during the time they were both Green Lanterns under Winick, Kyle always treated her as his equal. In fact, it was made pretty clear that he actually thought she was a better Green Lantern then he was.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   istari42 is offline   #46
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Ravenwing states the gl cause. Thankyou. I have jus trecently re-read the current outsiders series in which jade is a character of. here's a breakdown of some of the stuff she did in that series up to issue 23...

#2- she shows up and saves prez luthor, plus other helicopters that are going down. OUt of nowhere. Luthor says some luthor stuff and jade basically tells him "he knows where he can put it"

#3-helps indigo with a hield to block the oncoming apes.
-joker blows upi the place she saves luthor and nightwing in a bubble.
-nightwing tells batman he's glas jade threw in, she has experience.
(nightwing is talking good about her, thats shows some respect in the younger dcu crowd. NIghtwing is pretty high regarded.)
said some stuff which makes her character a little fleshed out.
"did you hear what the internet in the miniskirt had to say"
"okie sweetie thats gotta stop"
#4- called shockwave a dwarf.
-got thinder free from shockwaves grip using little green constructs.
rams,literally, hockwave into the ground
-we find out she's in the know with the criminals. Mr. bones is head of deo now.
( IN the oussiders series they were delibertaly taking donw loser bad guys to get the team together. Even though Nightwing, arsenal, and jade have had lots of experience!!)
-she lets everybody nowits payday.
-jade makes a funny about indigo learing new tricks when she calls grace a real [email protected]#ch.
#5 jade goes and tracks donw perps energy signatures that escape.
#6-jade looks the most upset in the hospital, after roy gets shot. she is the only one standing with her back turned to the rest of the team, and her down.
-we find out roys ok, she says thank god for taht and smiles.
#7 tells the rex mason that metamorpho is doing great, and makes rex rethink the situation.
#8 after seeing burnt corpses, jade is basically holding thunders hair and rubbing her back while she throws up.(thats a good friend)
#9 jade tires to stop the new saabac, but becuase her powers are magical, and so is he, it doesnt work to great affects.
-grace almost gets her faced burned off, jade makes green water, then a shell over her face until grace cab get to a hospital.
(while roys in the hospital, she is 2nd next to nightwing, for team leader. Nothing is said, but it shows in her actions and the team interactions.)
#13-jade is alone against mammoth and shimmer. she's beat up, arm roken. "Bring it on!" mamomth is near invulnerable, and shimmer is transforming her constructs into crap. she manipulates atoms and stuff.
-outsiders come, anissa's air in her lungs gets changed to h20, courtesy of shimmer. Shade gives her mouth to mouth and saves her life!
-jade confronts nightwing aboiut being emotionally detached and how he's gonna get the team killed. points finger in his face. basically calls nightwing out.
-she's all beat up, but still being assertive. she says that she joined this team for the same reasons. She has a tendancy to get too "involved" on this side of her life, but nightwing is gonna get someone killed.
#16 jade stops the fight between roy and dick. she has made up her mind, she talked to someone in the beginnning of the story, spoken ot the rest of the team. She tells nightwing he is no longer leader, and neither is arsenal..she is, and her firrst action is bringing in starfire!!
#23- READ this!! Jenny shows strength,she's the team leader. she closes her eyes solomnley--
"it was supposed to be different his time. This team.. my life. So...I know its not me. which one of these people, who i've fought along side of...grown to trust..grown to care about...who's been plotting to destroy us?"

Now the book isn't anout her, but her character is fleshed out a bit. NOw I know from the quote above that kyle regarded her highly. so there ya go. read more appearances of her. She gets fleshed out, and if the kids say I want to play outsiders, then you can be jeeny, becuase she is a srtong character in this book. Grace is cool too, but she's just tough and attitude. So..hopefully that clarifies what she has been up to and how her character has been a little more developed. So, dont just take heed of the gl books she was in a few years ago. that stuff where kyle was in space and she was the star for like 3 issues. read whats going a little more recently. There i think thats all I can contribute. BUt i still like her, so thats all that matter to me really. So i look forward to some comments abou this ragnell. Maybe you can put your previous views aside, and like her know. Her's to the future of JADE. Also i know mark sparacio and bill tucci put in a thing to dc abou ta jade miniseries. I spoke to them this past june about it at a comic show. later days
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   Captain Kal is offline   #47
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Ragnell makes a good opening post and series of points re: Jade/Jen.

I, myself, have always had a problem with Jen being second-fiddle to Kyle and having to learn things from him. Dangit! She's had her power her whole life and been a super-hero a lot longer than Kyle's had his ring. IMHO, Kyle should be taking pointers from her. It's just pandering to Kyle-fans, no offense meant, to have her a sidekick to Kyle. At the very least, make her Kyle's equal as a GL.

I don't recall any times Jen did better than Kyle as a GL.

I hadn't thought it through on all those other points, Ragnell, but I concur in belated hindsight.
 
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Old December 5th, 2005   rocketscientist is offline   #48
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It's strange, I actually used to love her when I was a teenager. She had dark hair, and green skin, was dating a superhero, and was the daughter of another superhero. She seemed fun!

After a while of not reading Green Lantern, I read Homecoming? and I ended very angry at the writer. How dare he portray Jade like this! I grumbled, and mumbled, and shelved my thoughts about her well past Rebirth. Outsiders didn't impress me, and she didn't make many appearances otherwise, so she dropped off my RADAR.

Then, while I was reading the Return of Donna Troy mini-series I took a good long look at Jade and decided I didn't really like her that much, at all.

And it wasn't just the way Jiminez wrote her. I looked at my back issues with this character and realized I didn't really like the way Ron Marz wrote her. So, I reread my Judd Winnick issues, and focused on Jenny rather than Kyle. Call me underwhelmed, yet again.

And, while I have nowhere close to the entire run of Infinity Inc, in the issues I do have, she didn't seem the least bit interesting.

In fact, I realized, that I loathe her. I despise her. I would rather see Donna Troy than Jade in a comic book right now, and that's saying a lot. There are fundamental aspects of her concept that I find extremely distatseful, and, from a feminist's point of view, I can make a pretty good case for her death.

So, why bring my revulsion of this "character" to these peaceful Message Boards? Well, I have a very simple request:

I want you to make me like her again.

She's already shown up in Infinite Crisis, and appears likely to be prominently featured there and possibly in the Rann-Thanagar War tie-in special. If, by some freakish malfunction of the writer's logic, she survives -- she'll still be connected heavily to Green Lantern and JSA, two titles that I very much enjoy reading. I would hate for her presence to affect that.

So I figure, there has to be an intelligent Jade fan out there somewhere who can make a good case for her continued existence, and here is probably the best place to ask without it turning into a flame war.

And I'm not asking for "she's a strong woman" or "she's cute" or "she's caring" I need specific character traits supported by actions and words that are written into the DC canon. Why is she fun, why is she good-hearted?

And there is to be No Blaming of The Writer. Of course it's the writer's fault she did something cruel, or came up short in a fight, or said something unbelievably stupid. Without the writer, she would not exist. We're talking about fictional characters here, and what composes their personality is the entirely of what's written. Until such time as an action is retconned away, or revealed as under mind-control, it counts. So no saying "She was a great character until Raab..." Uh-uh. That's cheating. Blaming other characters, however, is acceptable. People do act differently around some people than others.

Specifically, I'm asking:

What does her presence add to the DCU?
What does her presence add to the Green Lantern canon?
What valuable personal qualities does she possess?
Would you be comfortable if your daughter looked up to her?

I understand, this is a tall order, and a long post (in fact, right after this I intend to outline why I dislike her so much, to help you in your arguments). This will not be easy, and I will understand completely if, come next week, I see this post moved to the very last page with 0 replies. She's a difficult one to defend. And I feel its only fair to warn you, I'm a Taurus. That means bullheaded, to you normal folks. I'm particularly resistant to this sort of thing, and a lot of arguments for her may be the same as my personal arguments against her. She may not be worth the headache. But, I'm nothing if not open-minded, or at least extremely fickle, so it could work.

Thank you, and good evening.
ddf
Ragnell
Y'know, after reading your reasons Ragnell (which were very well thought out and presented) I agree with you. I don't hate Jade, but right now, I'm mostly apathetic. The only reason I'd want her to survive is because I wouldn't want to see Alan in mourning.

Anyway, I think she's a dead duck in the R-T War oneshot. I think she's going to die and give her pulse to Kyle.
 
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