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Old December 3rd, 2005   Lady Obie is offline   #17
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I've long had my hands full defending Jennie's twin Todd (she may have had plenty of issues but at least DC never played the long-term villian card with her - IMHO villiany is the greatest defamation of a hero) but I'm always willing to jump to her defense when needed .

It's easy to explain away every bad idea/concept with her:

1. Dating a creep/cheating on Kyle (though I've never been a big fan of these two as an item) - she was the product of a broken union & likely suffered some pain because of that. Plus she has always been very independent. When Kyle started waving the engagement idea she may not have been ready & used breakups & affairs to rebel. I think she'll make a great wife & mother someday but needs time to gain some more life experience & maturity first.

2. She's a bitch? - What the hey! She never really was a wallflower. Why should she act like one now?
She was always very independent & tough, even bordering on reckless in her early days.
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   curiouswanderer is offline   #18
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Well, you see, this is part of the chronic mishandling of the character. Way back when, she was, as far as she or (almost) anyone else knew, a perfectly normal, ordinary, happy child with nice middle-class parents. And then one day when she was about sixteen, her left hand started glowing and she suddenly turned bright green. That's when her parents admitted that they had adopted her AS AN INFANT. She had NEVER lived in a foster home. She had NEVER lived in an orphanage. She had never even known that she was adopted, or that she had a twin brother (more on that later).

That was all screwed with (and screwed up) for the sake of a couple of bad stories, back in GL #108-109.

She's never been the same after that, partly because all writers since seem to have thought she MUST be as messed-up as her brother - and partly because her adoptive parents and totally "normal" upbringing have never been mentioned again.

That's the REALLY disturbing thing: why would she desert the folks who had raised her, who had been there for her when she cut her first teeth, took her first steps, experienced her first day at school, etc?

I don't think ANYbody knows how to write her and make her believable. Not any more.

Oh, and Ragnell: Jade was NOT "automatically accepted" into the superhero community. She DID have to prove herself (as did the other members of "Infinity Inc."). They did so with flying colors (Infinity Inc. #1-11). But it was all "so long ago" (publication time) that no one remembers it any more (and the Crisis-related reality warpings and memory wipes did nothing to help).

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Ah, Maven, you are correct. I thought that I had remembered her being fairly well adjusted and that Todd was the one from the creep-home. I've just become so bogged down with the most recent character history that I had forgotten all that.

Ah, it's time to go back and re-read those old Infinity Inc comics.
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   Lundonj is offline   #19
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Lundonj -- I actually, consciously tried to keep the cheating incident out of the post, because so many people hate her for that anyway. But I work with guys that that has happened to, so I tend to empathize with Kyle's side in that mess. Strangely enough, turns out there's plenty of reason to hate her before that.
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True, and when you generate an outline in detail like that, her move to cheat on Kyle...fits her character. When it originally happened, for whatever reason, I thought it a plot device to burn all of Kyle's connections to earth. Now, the incident looks like it belongs in the big picture.

Ah well. Perhaps she is another GL related character that needs to be Spectre for a while and...nah.

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Old December 3rd, 2005   Argent is offline   #20
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Because Judd is writing her in Outsiders her personality remains constant. But if you look at the full life of the character her current personality is so changed she is like someone who has a brain tumor or a secret drug habit.
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   Ragnell is offline   #21
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Wow, you guys are so cool. All the answers are rational, well-thought-out, and best of all, calm. I do find it interesting, though, that so many people chimed in with a "Yep, don't like her either."

Londonj -- I know, isn't that creepy? Shocked me right out of hating Ron Marz!

Sk8maven -- I was hoping to hear from you, actually. What exactly did she do in early Infinity Inc that puts her on par with the other Lanterns? I mean, it's one thing to be "accepted" like Elongated Man or Booster Gold, but it's another thing entirely to fill in for Earth's Green Lantern, one of the A-listers of the planet. What made Kyle think she was such a great choice to fill-in for him rather than say, John (who really didn't need use fo his legs if he had the ring)? It seems to me he only picked her because she was his girlfriend and he felt bad about her losing her powers.

istari42 -- I suppose what bothers me about jade's second string status. 1) She was the only female for so long. I'm sorry, it gives me flashbacks to the playground -- "Well, you're a girl, so you have to play this character" "But I wanna play someone fun!" The most prominent female in a frnachise may not have the popularity of a first stringer, but she should at least have equal power and competence. It's one thng to call, say, Katma Tui, a second strigner, because she coud at least hold her own with the first strigners while at the same power level, but Jade really can't. 2) She got Kyle's spare ring whenever he left. Right there is John Stewart who may also have been a second stringer, but he had first string competence, ability, and experience, and Jade gets the power up. It would have been better to explore her plant powers instead and make her a different sort of character than place her in a role that there are obviously better people around to fill.

LadyObie -- Wow, so cool you responded. I've run across your essay on redeeming Obsidian, good stuff. Jade's harder to empathize with for me, though. Your excuses for her only cement my problems with her. I don't want a wallflower, but female characters can be strogn and vibrant without being moody, selfish, and harboring and undeserved princess attitude.

Kid Lantern -- I rememebr that mini. She ended up losing her powers, right? Though eyah, the Mogo story was a fun read (but still wasn't impressed with Jade at all. In fact, she seemed especially bad, personality-wise during that story.)

Argent -- You had the best idea. The barbie thing is a Jade story I would like to read. Also, the idea she might have been pregnant and aborted the baby is intriguing. Would have made a better fallng out between her and Kyle, and I find it more sympathetic than the cheating thing.

stumpjs -- I suppose her mother's insanity could balance out her father's prestige, if her mother were legendary. Almost nobody remembers the old Flash villain, some knowledgeable JSA member always seems to have to explain it to another hero when it comes up. For all we know, Fatality murdered them in their sleep, or, collected their heads after the CPB was destroyed. Didn't she steal Kyle's ring the first tiem she met him? That could be her standard strategy (of course, she didn't need to steal Jennie's). Bottom line, Kyle beat her, when Jade, at the same power level with years more experience, couldn't. You've got a point in that she could become a deeper character later on, but she has to change for that to happen. But in ten years she's just gone downhill. No deepening, more of a shallowing.

Donna vs Jade -- Actually, Alex was the best suited to Kyle, simply because she was created for him. No need for writers to shoehorn her into a complimentary personality, she already had one. Donna served a good purpose as a rebound romance/combat trainer, but Kyle, as I've said numerous times elsewhere on this board, is a lead character, not a team-book character or a sidekick. He should get his own girlfriend.

Sk8maven, istari42, Kid Lantern, and Argent all cheated and Blamed the Writer, but when you took that away they had good points anyway.

I'm still not looking forward to seeing her in print again, though. And I still despise the thought of her and Kyle rekindling their old flame.
So, Anybody else?
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   rex tyler is offline   #22
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Jade is pretty cool(or was).

Some may look at her as a b!tch, but she's not - she's just mentally tough. And she got that way from Infinity Inc.

She was one of the few members who had a lot confidence. Norda, Big Al, and Todd were kind of passive and shy. Rick, Beth and Yolanda were too 'new'. Besides the leader, Pemberton, only Hector, Lyta, and Jennie really showed any leadership on the team, IMO.

This thread has talked about her latching onto, or having problems with men. That is correct. But that is one of the reasons she's interesting, to me. I know a lot of people like that in real life.

She has had a tough time connecting on a personal level with the men in her life.

Which brings us back to Infinity Inc. 1)She finds out Alan Freakin' Scott is her father. And he's very wary of having a relationship with her, for awhile. That's tough. 2)She had a relationship with Brainwave. The son of a major villain, and a wack-job on occasion, himself. That's tough. 3)Big, tough guy vegatable Solomon Grundy gets a crush on her, and won't leave her side. That's tough.

What is her solid moral wall to lean on? A nut-case for a mom, a brother who is a murderer, a father who has died, de-aged, aged, been critically hurt ten zillion times, etc., and former teamates that have been killed, and sometimes flat-out slaughtered.

I would be more disappointed if she wasn't a flawed character. That's a lot of emotional baggage. Except for the stupid 'cheating on Kyle' thing, I think Jennie has done 'ok' for herself. IMO.
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   GLGypsy is offline   #23
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There are two big negatives when i reflect back on the characterization of Jade.
1. I believe Jade will always be that girl who cheated on that nice guy Kyle for me. I don't look on any female as a b!tch, but that defining event cemented her personality in my mind for the forseeable future.
2. Her powers have been shorted somehow. She is about as good at constructs as the JLU John Stewart or Argent. Even when she had a power ring. It works for him, but it doesn't for Jade.
Her other major power is largely ignored.

How to fix her, I have a few ideas....
1. Concentrate on her as a superhero and on her leadership skills. This just may be her niche. Allow her to do good or whoop major evil butt. Present her as an effective leader that can get a group of people goal oriented without getting them killed.
2. Allow Jade to be a strong female role model without being too abusive of her male friends ego's. The predator aspect of her nature seems to be unpopular.
3. A positive aspect of her nature has been her supportive role of her father. In Kingdom Come and in Rebirth she is the one there to support him when things go wrong. This is a good thing and shows her inner strength, she IS the one supporting the JSA's top gun.
4. Allow her green thumb power to be explored. It could differentiate her from her fathers legacy. And allow her to moore effectively inherit the green energy, there has got to be a better expression of that power than largely ray blasts
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   Amentep is offline   #24
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Sk8maven -- I was hoping to hear from you, actually. What exactly did she do in early Infinity Inc that puts her on par with the other Lanterns? I mean, it's one thing to be "accepted" like Elongated Man or Booster Gold, but it's another thing entirely to fill in for Earth's Green Lantern, one of the A-listers of the planet. What made Kyle think she was such a great choice to fill-in for him rather than say, John (who really didn't need use fo his legs if he had the ring)? It seems to me he only picked her because she was his girlfriend and he felt bad about her losing her powers.
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I'm not Maven, but...

One thing to remember when Jade appeared she was an Earth-2 character. No GL corps, only other Green Lantern was - and had always been - her father.

Like all of II, she had to prove to the JSA and the world that they were competent and ready to take on "saving the world", and that's what she did. She was - at the time - a positive character; a person who - while adopted had had a good childhood, and while she wanted acceptance from her birth father, was pretty well adjusted on her own. She was trying to build a relationship with the "family she never knew", she gave a chance to the son of a villain, Brainwave Jr, even having a romance with him.

She was just this fun positive character who seemed to really want to be a hero.

That kinda changes post-crisis where everybody and their brother is a Green Lantern. Her background changed (with the whole abused in an orphanage thing that I seem to remember reading in GL) and she increasingly just became a "girlfriend" character to, say, Kyle, rather than being her own person.

I really don't like Jade post-crisis. She was better off when she was being ignored, because the writers who've tackled her since that point seem to have no understanding of the character, IMO.
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   Sk8maven is offline   #25
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Jade is pretty cool(or was).
<snip>
This thread has talked about her latching onto, or having problems with men. That is correct. But that is one of the reasons she's interesting, to me. I know a lot of people like that in real life.

She has had a tough time connecting on a personal level with the men in her life.

Which brings us back to Infinity Inc. 1)She finds out Alan Freakin' Scott is her father. And he's very wary of having a relationship with her, for awhile. That's tough. 2)She had a relationship with Brainwave. The son of a major villain, and a wack-job on occasion, himself. That's tough. 3)Big, tough guy vegatable Solomon Grundy gets a crush on her, and won't leave her side. That's tough.

What is her solid moral wall to lean on? A nut-case for a mom, a brother who is a murderer, a father who has died, de-aged, aged, been critically hurt ten zillion times, etc., and former teamates that have been killed, and sometimes flat-out slaughtered.
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You're forgetting two nice normal everyday adoptive parents who SHOULD always be there for her and provide "grounding" exactly the way Ma and Pa Kent provide support and grounding for Superman. Unless somebody or something killed them off between panels or issues and nobody ever bothered to tell us!

I would be more disappointed if she wasn't a flawed character. That's a lot of emotional baggage. Except for the stupid 'cheating on Kyle' thing, I think Jennie has done 'ok' for herself. IMO.
ddf
And the "cheating on Kyle" thing could always be explained away via the Psycho-Pirate or some other mind-manipulator. I'd prefer the Pirate, though, because he does have a history with Jade (even if it's pre-Crisis) and he is just that kind of a sadistic emotional manipulator.

I find it AWFULLY suspicious that she found this guy so instantly and totally irresistible that no one and nothing else meant anything to her, not even that the creep stood her up to go shtup another girl. It's even suspicious that he was drawn to look so much like a young version of her biological father (which may or may not be coincidence).

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Old December 4th, 2005   Augustine is offline   #26
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I use to like Jade, I thought she was a great character and after Donna was gone she added to the title in her own way that differed from Donna yet we also got to see what made Jade tick and overall I came to respect her as a hero. She was not stupid nor foolish, she was kinda realistic (green skin aside) in that she had a job, she liked photography and had her ups and down yet she kept on going no matter what.

She could be both strong and weak depending on the situation like any other person made me sympathize with her at times. The fact she had power and knew how to use it and even her sexiness on one occasion to stop Sludge which Kyle said wasn’t even fair since he certainly couldn’t even do anything like that made her seem like she could be just about any woman. The fact she had her fathers legacy and more to live up too was a rich tapestry to draw from.

Then she did the cheating thing which came off as a 180 for her, sadly enough I believe most people hated this because not only did she betray Kyle but some of us have seen such situations in real life or been part of them. Worse she was shacking up with a guy who was cheating on her and she knew it!

What happened to her self respect?

Outsiders she comes off as trying to regain some purpose but is still pretty screwed up in her own way, if she was a real person it wouldn’t surprise me if she would sleep around from person to person. I’ve seen that kind of thing happen with others in such situations.

Right now I can’t say there is much to defend Jade with since she herself would need to start correcting her life and get it out of the gutter from where it belongs currently.
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   rex tyler is offline   #27
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Because of that 'cheating' albatross, she's become much like Jesse Quick was a couple of years ago. But, like Jesse, Jennie just needs a good writer with a gameplan to get the Jadester back to being cool.

Oh, and I agree with Maven's last paragraph. I'm onboard for that.
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   istari42 is offline   #28
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istari42 -- I suppose what bothers me about jade's second string status. 1) She was the only female for so long. I'm sorry, it gives me flashbacks to the playground -- "Well, you're a girl, so you have to play this character" "But I wanna play someone fun!" The most prominent female in a frnachise may not have the popularity of a first stringer, but she should at least have equal power and competence. It's one thng to call, say, Katma Tui, a second strigner, because she coud at least hold her own with the first strigners while at the same power level, but Jade really can't. 2) She got Kyle's spare ring whenever he left. Right there is John Stewart who may also have been a second stringer, but he had first string competence, ability, and experience, and Jade gets the power up. It would have been better to explore her plant powers instead and make her a different sort of character than place her in a role that there are obviously better people around to fill.

Well, its unfortunate, but jade, being only ever in a team book, or in conjunction with another GL, is just that, a 2nd stringer. Now I heart me some jade, but she could not be better than kyle. It is his book. She was added to help his character. Hopefully she can grow out of this, and i look forward to seeing that in the future. Outsiders and in the aftermath of IC. I think you are just trying to hate on her. if you need a 100% positive role model then look to women who have there own books. ie wonder woman. Now I hope tha tdoesnt make me sound sexist, but she atleast has her own book. jade was always a team player. Jade is powerful and can handle her own. Where is your proof she can't? Again, they were not gonna make jade, or in that matter john stewart or guy gardner better than kyle, in his own book. Not gonna happen. You need to realize that. John stewart could not have recieved the ring. he was at that moment in dc history not ready for it. After ion he was. The answer is that simple. So why not give jade, a person who has been a hero for a while, who has ties to the gl history be the bearer of the ring. Kyle was the only gl and he made his decision. Again simple. But if you understand it, kyle made the decision. She is a secondary character. more prominent than radu or terry, becuase of her super hero status. as for exploring her plant powers...(sigh) I would like to see that too. however magic and teh golden age history of her does good for the fanboys, and girls, but not much for everyone else. It is hard enough her being retconned into the only earth, but her magic/plant powers only distant herself from the gl franchise as it stands today. that is why alan couldn't sell his own title. please don't hate, but understand. It is good as a gl fan to see him in jsa and make somme appearances. but he in nowhere near as prominent and likes as hal jordan and i thnk kyle. They are more the boom in comics(hal) and the modern comics(kyle.) so plant powers are cool, and maybe in outsiders this could happen, but that would again put her further away from the gl as we know it, and are gonna know it in the future. So who would be better to fill in her spot?

Argent -- You had the best idea. The barbie thing is a Jade story I would like to read. Also, the idea she might have been pregnant and aborted the baby is intriguing. Would have made a better fallng out between her and Kyle, and I find it more sympathetic than the cheating thing.

You would of found it more sympathetic?!?!?, but the readers would of hated her even more. Aborting her own child. Come on is that a story you think would fly? That would cheapen her character even mnore, and you would still be asking people to defend her honor today.




Sk8maven, istari42, Kid Lantern, and Argent all cheated and Blamed the Writer, but when you took that away they had good points anyway.

we had good points, but are you really trying to understand? Or are you dead set in your thinking of i dislike jade?

I'm still not looking forward to seeing her in print again, though. And I still despise the thought of her and Kyle rekindling their old flame.

why despise? real feelings can work there way through. stuff like that happens in real life. A new charcter to be kyle's girl could be cool. But the whole ion thing and one hero will be changed forever in the R/T IC special would tend to lead to a super hero girl who can handle the realtionship with another high profile one. Super couple might be the only way. Plus it ties up the old skool gl with the new gl corps. heck her magic based powers might change with magic as we know it in the dcu changing? Could emerald sparks again fly? I, for one would not despise it, but would give it a chance. writers do your thing!!!
So, Anybody else?[/quote]
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   istari42 is offline   #29
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you know what else, that whole cheating she did, even though she knew the guy slept with another, was stupid! Just so kyle could doubt himself, and disconnect his ties to earth. she helped build him up, so i guess ron used her to bring him back down. she was a confidence for kyle, so without her he could go back into space. Ugh!
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   Sk8maven is offline   #30
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you know what else, that whole cheating she did, even though she knew the guy slept with another, was stupid! Just so kyle could doubt himself, and disconnect his ties to earth. she helped build him up, so i guess ron used her to bring him back down. she was a confidence for kyle, so without her he could go back into space. Ugh!
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That's the problem in a nutshell. It's been a very, VERY long time since she was a character instead of a convenient plot device.

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Old December 4th, 2005   Lady Obie is offline   #31
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I definitely agree that the first Crisis royally screwed up all the Earth 2 characters .

Tossing characters who were unique into a world where they became literal flavors of the month wouldn't do anything for anybody!

But no matter what DC's doing now, I highly doubt any of these characters would be shifted back to a new (or revival of an old) Earth 2 nor am I sure it would help them.

Even if it's brought the E2 characters some tough times, I think they're so entrenched in E1 now that if they were permanently shifted out of a homeworld again it might do even worse damage than the first time .

On another subject, I pretty much fell away from blame the writer a long time ago.

I used to blame writers (& even artists though they had no responsibility) for stories/ideas that made me cringe.

And I ended up in a doghouse quite a few times because my behavior got way too passionate !

But I realized that all comic writers are human and capable of writing both great and awful things.

And I learned the best way to deal with it when you encounter a story/idea that sucks is talk about why that story/idea sucks not say ***** ****** is such a lousy writer, person, [email protected]$$ etc. which actually detracts from your point!

Maven is also right on the money with Jen becoming the way she is because of being a plot device instead of a viable character to forward her own interests.

I tend to use the term tool myself when I describe the way Jen, Todd, etc. are used to raise up other heroes by being brought down themselves.

Even their stepmom Molly has gotten the tool treatment (who else recalls Underworld Unleashed?).

If DC could see that the twins ARE as cool as their father maybe that will change things for the better.
 
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Old December 4th, 2005   Lady Obie is offline   #32
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LadyObie -- Wow, so cool you responded. I've run across your essay on redeeming Obsidian, good stuff. Jade's harder to empathize with for me, though. Your excuses for her only cement my problems with her. I don't want a wallflower, but female characters can be strogn and vibrant without being moody, selfish, and harboring and undeserved princess attitude.
ddf
Ragnell
That is a good point as well. Writers may be doing these kind of things to try to simplify Jen's personality when in reality she would be better served by having more depth .

Sure she could continue being tough & a real bitch but why not have some writer give us her motivation for that, like say she's tough and always in control because deep down she's really scared due to all the instability in her early life and fighting the fear things will spiral out of control again (& this also could help explain her extreme reactions when her teammates were hurt and endangered in various issues of Outsiders). It's easy to put on a brave face when you want to cover up a great deal of fear !
 
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