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Old April 14th, 2013   Alan is offline   #33
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Yep. And if you want to alter time to fix things? Send Booster back to stop Dr. Light from raping Sue Dibney.
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That is done isn't it- after all, we haven't even seen the Dibneys in this new world, so that's one part that can't have happened.

Probably...
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   flashsuper is offline   #34
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Also, going back to Pre-COIE means that you have multiple earths again, and that means the JSA is still on a different earth, as is Captain Marvel and the Charlton characters etc etc. IMO, if you're going to undo it, just go back to the pre-flashpoint, which had all those world integrated into one. I never really got what the anger was over COIE, since all it did was integrate all the characters into one world, which makes way more sense. Pre-COIE is just a confusing mess, hence why COIE happened in the first place.
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I would do pre-flashpoint and just right after brightest day. That way everyone dead is back. EVERYONE. Even Roy Harper's daughter. Every dead hero, villain and supporting character to who and what they were EXACTLY at the moment of their deaths. Then we can get some real writing done with the existing characters. Make real writers out of the current talent pool (although that might bea subjective comment) and let them deal with all the situations resulting in those brought back. It would make for good storytelling. Use the tools you have/had DC.

I don't know who else agrees with what I am about to say, but I always felt that DC did the reboot because they felt things were so screwed up with all the damage that they had done with various characters over the years that they believed themselves written into a corner and had no other way our except for starting over.

They might have said that the DC history was so huge and hard to follow and not conducive to new readers (i.e. not new-reader friendly), but come on. Part of being a follower of so much history was being able to find and collect the back issues of those characters that you loved.

Marvel also has a huge and sometimes convoluted history and has had many, MANY events that changed the status quo of many characters, but THEY can continue on and just keep on writing. Some good, some bad, but they do not start over from scratch (or start over except for the written word of the office favorites.)

Now I'm just getting myself all worked up.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   flashsuper is offline   #35
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Oh, one more thing. Find someone to purchase DC from the controlling party and get someone in charge of the line that knows the industry and what makes it tick. Not someone that THINKS that they know.

Just because you build it does not mean that people will come.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Mark MacMillan is offline   #36
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Yup - you've said it all.

Jim
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If DC only would care more about quality and real substance throughout their line instead of the immediate bottom line. <sigh>

That's all I want and that's all DC owes us as a company.

Comic book publishers are only supposed to put out a selection of quality wares/comics for comics fans/consumers to pick and choose from.

That's all.

Marvel's no different. Heck, I feel the only reason they haven't split their fanbase up with every event they've done since 1985 is because they bring back their Golden, Silver and Bronze Age characters not too long after they replace them or kill them or whatever.

Jim Rhodes barely had any adventures as Iron Man before they brought back Tony.

Bucky Barnes and John Walker couldn't keep Steve Rogers from taking back the Captain America mantle.

Hank Pym hasn't gone anywhere despite being replaced how many times?

Eric Masterson didn't stay Thor very long and Ben Reilly (sp?) didn't stay Spidey long either.

Evil Tony, Teen Tony, etc, didn't last either.

Again, all that I want is a selection of quality comics to pick and choose from.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Eric Q is offline   #37
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Oh, one more thing. Find someone to purchase DC from the controlling party and get someone in charge of the line that knows the industry and what makes it tick. Not someone that THINKS that they know.

Just because you build it does not mean that people will come.
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It'd be easier if they place people more suited for the job than buy DC. Since DC is a cash cow, I can only see Time Warner selling if they are hurting for money or the buyer is someone like Bill Gates.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Mark MacMillan is offline   #38
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And hence the B-I-G problem, DC would have readers pushing for about a dozen different starting points and being unhappy if theirs isn't picked, unhappy if it is and it's done in a way that they we're not imagining.

Jim
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Yep. I'd go back to pre-Breakdowns. That's when DC started breaking their toys for me.

But not everyone would like that, so keep on truckin' and raise the quality is what I say.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Bizarro #98 is offline   #39
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In 1934, National Allied Publications was founded, forever ruining the DC Universe.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   JRM is offline   #40
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In 1934, National Allied Publications was founded, forever ruining the DC Universe.
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LOL snicker - well played.

As long as there are comics we'll have something to bitch about, eh. I guess it better than being silly bitchy about things that are important.

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Old April 14th, 2013   Sp33df0rc3 is offline   #41
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LOL snicker - well played.

As long as there are comics we'll have something to bitch about, eh. I guess it better than being silly bitchy about things that are important.

Jim
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Basically, lets just scrap all comics and relaunch with anthologies
 
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Old April 15th, 2013   John is offline   #42
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I would be happy just going back to pre-FP. Although I HATED COIE, I feel we have spent enough time correcting things and continuity wasn't that bad. We just needed a few tweeks like Powergirl, Donna Troy and Hawkman.

Powergirl - If they didn't want her to be from some multiple earth, the fix was easy. She was still Kal's cousin, but from LARA's side of the family (Lara's sisters daughter and still a Kryptonian). Simple.

Donna Troy - George Perez meshed this all out PERFECTLY until Byrne had to get involved. Wipe out the Byrne Donna/Dark Angel arc.

Hawkman - Again, simple. Two sets of hawks. One form Thanagar (Katar and Shayera) and the other two from Earth. This fixes the whole JLA/JSA/Infinity Inc. mess.

For the record...NOT liking the New52.
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Old April 15th, 2013   Mr. Wrong is offline   #43
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I'd love to see a return to pre-Crisis DC... but it would most likely be a logistical mess to do so.

I like the "ignore continuity for the most part" approach, AKA the "All-Star" approach. Which, in a way, is similar to the pre-Crisis model.
Most titles were self-contained. Yes, Action & Superman were coordinated, and Batman & 'Tec even carried stories back and forth for a while pre-Crisis. JLA would acknowledge really un-ignorable events in the members' solo books (like Mod-WW or GA waking up as a goateed leftist one day). But mostly, continuity was pretty loose. Story lines from Brave & The Bold or DC Comics Presents were rarely acknowledged in the Superman or Batman books. They were normally not even acknowledged in any important way in the books of the characters that teamed up with Superman or Batman, assuming those characters had their own titles... most didn't.

I think DC needs to establish a strong status quo for their major characters (like Superman & Batman pre-Crisis, for example... things happened, changes occurred here and there (Clark becomes a TV reporter for WGBS, Bruce moves into the Wayne Building when Dick goes to college), but at the end of the day they were still the same basic characters with the same core supporting cast(s).

Anyway, with established boundaries (Superman isn't transgender, Batman doesn't use an AK-47) let creators come along, do their thing, and then, when their story is done, they leave the book and the next batch of creators come along and do their thing. As long as editorial doesn't let them break the toys beyond repair, things will be fine.

Like JLA: So what if Superman turns into electric-blue-bugaloo Superman for 6 months in his own titles? JLA doesn't need to reflect that. Everyone knows it's a temporary change, so why disrupt JLA over it?

I'm just so very tired of massive crossovers... If there's going to be a big event featuring lots and lots of DC characters, great... just keep it self-contained. That way I can choose to read about it or not. The intrusive tie-ins in the regular monthlies are all-too-often shoehorned-in and disruptive to the ongoing series. Enough.

I loved DC's continuity, but the more they tried to streamline or fix it, the more damage seemed to be done, the more it seemed to tie down what the writers and artists could do. Focus on quality stories featuring recognizable versions of the characters that people want to read about. Don't force me to have to keep up with an ever-morphing history; if a former DC nerd like me was already getting worn out by the constant changes prior to FP, then you've clearly screwed around with it too much!

That's what I think, anyway.

But yeah, part of me would love to wake up tomorrow and see DC reset to the pre-Crisis era. Multiple Earths were about as confusing as having multiple McDonalds in the same town. And the DCU was a much more fun and light-hearted place back then.
 
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Old April 15th, 2013   superfriend is offline   #44
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i just wish the comics were worth reading. covers a multitude of sins. as it stands, running things like Marvel in the late 90s just makes for dire reading.

there're always some gems but this naked devotion to bottom line, short term gain thinking has consistently moved the comic industry/direct market toward extinction.

sign o' the times tho. kicking cans down the road....
 
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Old April 15th, 2013   Mr. Wrong is offline   #45
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Thinking back on exactly what the pre-Crisis DCU was like has made me wonder... by the time it was published, was CoIE really needed in terms of clearing the deck for more creativity and inventive storytelling?

In 1980, DC's line was pretty stagnant, IMO. Most titles were just treading water, and there just wasn't much going on.

But between 1980 and 1984? Things had really, REALLY started to improve; especially as regards creativity and experimentation:

-NEW TEEN TITANS - 'Nuff said.
-BLUE DEVIL
-'MAZING MAN
-AMBUSH BUG (his first mini was in '85, but his appearances leading up to that in ACTION, DC COMICS PRESENTS, etc. were already pushing the envelope in terms of tipping over sacred cows both in story and art).
-LOSH by Giffen & Levitz
-OMEGA MEN
-CAMELOT 3000
-SWAMP THING
-CAPTAIN CARROT & HIS AMAZING ZOO CREW
-JLDetroit (pass or fail, DC was taking a huge chance with a flagship title)
-RONIN (by Frank Miller)
-ALL-STAR SQUADRON (not that it was innovative or groundbreaking, but it was a successful title headlined by obscure golden-agers like Robotman, Liberty Belle and Johnny Quick; that's at least worth noting)
-BATMAN & THE OUTSIDERS (Having Batman leave the JLA, and not on the best terms, was a big deal back then; furthermore, it had the effect of straining Superman and Batman's friendship enough to make WORLDS FINEST more interesting than it had been in many years).

BATMAN & DETECTIVE COMICS had some really strong stories in those years. Meonch & Colan on DETECTIVE and O'Niel (I think) & Don Newton on BATMAN were cranking out consistently good stuff. And, if I can cheat a little, the last pre-Crisis Batman stories (published post-Crisis, but pre-BATMAN: YEAR ONE) were exceptionally good. Mike W. Barr & Alan Davis' DETECTIVE run? Extremely awesome. BATMAN #400? A classic. Dick Grayson Robin no more? A new kid (admittedly with almost the exact same origin as Dick, but hey, baby steps...) named Jason Todd becomes a new Robin? That was a big freaking deal to do something that radical to the status quo back then. And that Anniversary issue of DETECTIVE (#527) where Jason (not yet Robin) confronts Killer Croc, his parents' murderer? Another classic.

SUPERMAN & ACTION COMICS had their moments, though things were still a bit stagnant. SUPERMAN #400 was... another classic. And the Annual with Moore's "For the Man Who Has Everything" was proof that there was still steam left in the pre-Crisis Superman's engine, given a writer who had a fresh approach.

GREEN LANTERN by Wein & Gibbons made that comic pop from the stands in a way it hadn't for years prior.

AQUAMAN & HAWKMAN both had minis attempting to breathe some life back into them...

WONDER WOMAN... well, it wasn't spectacular, but the "All-New, All-Different WW" (that really wasn't THAT different) era featuring art by Gene Colan was a big step in the right direction towards making her comic more of an engaging read. WONDER WOMAN #300 was... (you guessed it), another classic.

THE FLASH started to get really good between '80 and '84 as well.

Anyway, of course the above is all just my opinion, and off the top of my head, so I probably left out some other great examples of DC experimenting and generally improving or making serious attempts at improving the quality of their superhero books between 1980 and 1984.

And before I forget my original point: I don't know how long before its publication DC was planning the CoIE, but by 1984 I think things may have gotten so much better that the CoIE wasn't even needed, at least not as a means of improving the quality of their comics. The toys weren't broken, nor was the toybox. They just needed a little dusting off, a few repairs here and there, and a few new toys thrown in with the rest.

Oh yeah: On the non-superhero front, ARION and ARAK both debuted during that period, and were both EXCELLENT fantasy comics. And the War & Western books were at least very consistent (Okay, HEX (Jonah Hex tossed into the future) wasn't an idea I cared for, but again, they took a pretty big chance; I suppose interest in Westerns was probably at a historical low around then, so they probably had to do something.)
Last edited by Mr. Wrong; April 15th, 2013 at 11:18 AM.
 
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Old April 15th, 2013   Hannah is offline   #46
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I just can't really get into the Nu52, I have tried with several books but most leave me wanting.

My favorite characters are either not there or barely recognizable. The only books I can say I have enjoyed were ones that I didn't have much knowledge of prior to reading the new versions.
 
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Old April 15th, 2013   MattDiCarlo is offline   #47
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I know this is a foolish comment and I'm asking for it, but really, at this point, I can't imagine anything making things WORSE.

I'd be up for anything else.
 
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Old April 15th, 2013   Sp33df0rc3 is offline   #48
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I know this is a foolish comment and I'm asking for it, but really, at this point, I can't imagine anything making things WORSE.

I'd be up for anything else.
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Rob Liefield accepts your challenge.
 
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