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Old April 13th, 2013   imarriedsatanII is offline   #1
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Default So, um, what if DC undid all the reboots and brought back the pre-COIE Universe?

Heresy, I know.

Think about it, though. There are several ways to approach this in order to please the most people, which = $$$.

Let's call a duck a duck. DC has pi$$ed off a whole lot of readers over the years, and their endless reboots and retcons have chased away longtime readers... myself included. My pull has gone from over 30 books a month (almost 100% DC) up until post-Flashpoint, and I am now reading quite a few Marvel books again after a loooooooong absence. For me, that spells things out plainly.

So, let's undo all the "fixes" they have attempted over the years. Put someone with some idea of how fans' brains operate in charge and have them helm the project. Make it a grand event. I would like to suggest creating a single title for just that purpose. If DC chooses to let fans in on the significance of the book or not, leave it up to them. They could just tease with something along the lines of "Read this series! It will have long lasting and grand implications in the end." You get where I'm going.

Also, so as not to cheese off readers post 1985, make it a universe/time spanning epic. Pick out the characters that are proven winners/have a significant fan base. Get Booster Gold and Rip Hunter to gather up Batwoman, Blue Beetle (Jaime), Barry Allen, Bart Allen from pre-Flashpoint, Donna Troy, and whomever else is worth carrying over to the pre-COIE Universe, and have them journey to put things right. This way the readers can have their cake and eat it, too. We've got the multiverse back, we can bring in newer, fan loved characters, and spin the rest off on another Earth in the Multiverse.

I vote "Yes!"

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Old April 14th, 2013   leonmallett is offline   #2
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Heresy, I know.

Think about it, though. There are several ways to approach this in order to please the most people, which = $$$.

Let's call a duck a duck. DC has pi$$ed off a whole lot of readers over the years, and their endless reboots and retcons have chased away longtime readers... myself included. My pull has gone from over 30 books a month (almost 100% DC) up until post-Flashpoint, and I am now reading quite a few Marvel books again after a loooooooong absence. For me, that spells things out plainly.

So, let's undo all the "fixes" they have attempted over the years. Put someone with some idea of how fans' brains operate in charge and have them helm the project. Make it a grand event. I would like to suggest creating a single title for just that purpose. If DC chooses to let fans in on the significance of the book or not, leave it up to them. They could just tease with something along the lines of "Read this series! It will have long lasting and grand implications in the end." You get where I'm going.

Also, so as not to cheese off readers post 1985, make it a universe/time spanning epic. Pick out the characters that are proven winners/have a significant fan base. Get Booster Gold and Rip Hunter to gather up Batwoman, Blue Beetle (Jaime), Barry Allen, Bart Allen from pre-Flashpoint, Donna Troy, and whomever else is worth carrying over to the pre-COIE Universe, and have them journey to put things right. This way the readers can have their cake and eat it, too. We've got the multiverse back, we can bring in newer, fan loved characters, and spin the rest off on another Earth in the Multiverse.

I vote "Yes!"

Thoughts?
ddf
imarriedsatanII View Post
5 thoughts:

1. Th team suggested just sounds like a variation of Marvel's Exiles (rather than the original Malibu Exiles).

2. Each time someone at DC (usually Geoff Johns or Grant Morrison) has tried to unpick parts of the reboots, that has arguably added to problem; if others do not play with the same toys with the same vision of the person who unpicked the reboot problems ensue (witness the fixing of Hawkman and then breaking those fixes for the umpteenth time).

3. Does looking backwards guarantee good stories now? I am not so sure. DC have largely lost me as a reader (3 regular books, probably 2 soon), but their obsessive focus on continuity - clearing the slate or adding back in what was swept away has been so much front and centre that I feel they lost many, many opportunities to tell good stories.

4. Following on from that, telling good stories should be the focus, not recurrent continuity fixes. Advocating yet another continuity fix is arguably not the way - they have already divided the fan-base 4-5 times from 1985 onward with continuity shifting events, and I do not see how that can be reconciled, how they can un-divide those divisions by creating more division and looking backwards.

5. And finally, there was a different tonality to the silver age; do fans want current DC obsessions of sex and violence applied to those characters? Think about how Ted Kord went out - the final death of silver age maybe?
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   JRM is offline   #3
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5 thoughts:

1. Th team suggested just sounds like a variation of Marvel's Exiles (rather than the original Malibu Exiles).

2. Each time someone at DC (usually Geoff Johns or Grant Morrison) has tried to unpick parts of the reboots, that has arguably added to problem; if others do not play with the same toys with the same vision of the person who unpicked the reboot problems ensue (witness the fixing of Hawkman and then breaking those fixes for the umpteenth time).

3. Does looking backwards guarantee good stories now? I am not so sure. DC have largely lost me as a reader (3 regular books, probably 2 soon), but their obsessive focus on continuity - clearing the slate or adding back in what was swept away has been so much front and centre that I feel they lost many, many opportunities to tell good stories.

4. Following on from that, telling good stories should be the focus, not recurrent continuity fixes. Advocating yet another continuity fix is arguably not the way - they have already divided the fan-base 4-5 times from 1985 onward with continuity shifting events, and I do not see how that can be reconciled, how they can un-divide those divisions by creating more division and looking backwards.

5. And finally, there was a different tonality to the silver age; do fans want current DC obsessions of sex and violence applied to those characters? Think about how Ted Kord went out - the final death of silver age maybe?
ddf
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Yup - sums it up both well and clearly. The 1985 ship has sailed (or it should have). Yes, at times creators have done good things with earlier elements - but the same could be said about King Arthur or Robin Hood; however, the best of these (and other strong and lasting genre pieces) is new interpretation and additions that build on what is most archetypal about the concept. At times, we see this about various "reboots", re-imagining and updatings and they tend to work. Then we have the takes that do not in any way reflect the source concept other than in a forced manner- and only very, very rarely do readers respond well.

The problem with the n52 is not its concept at the root, but its general execution. If more of the long standing key books were strong and stayed strong and if the general turn over of creators had been better avoided - I believed that, after some grumbling, most old times would have jumped aboard as we did back in the mid-late 80's. Problem DC went to that well to many times - and too many of those times, they didn't pull it off.

Finally, DC in the early 80's seemed to be an exciting innovative place with a stable of strong and more importantly diverse voices - by the mid 80's it had built itself into being the new "House of Ideas" We saw a bit of that around the time of 52 and OYL but within a year things were quickly going downhill. Problem is most of those voices are effectively retirement age or close to it. Do they still have the interest in and ideas today???? Some seem to, others not so much.

Not sure what the best fix would be - really there is no way to come out of this stronger. It is a pity - DC use to be an imprint that encouraged tonal diversity and creativity - today, it is all about building to the next event that few are excited about or even interested in.

<sigh>

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Old April 14th, 2013   Bizarro #98 is offline   #4
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Here's how it works:

1. DC reboots.

2. Elements of the preboot universe gradually start working their way back into the reboot universe.

3. It gets to the point where both universes are considered to be parts of one big history.

4. Repeat.

Seriously, by the time DC did Flashpoint, it was like Crisis on Infinite Earths had never happened. The multiverse was back, Bat-Mite was back, multiple colors of kryptonite were back. Everything that DC used CoIE to get rid of eventually found it's way back. By that point, even stories like "The Caveman from Krypton" were being acknowledged as part of history again.

So it's not really necessary to ask DC to bring back the pre-CoIE universe. It had already come back. And it will again. As will the pre-Flashpoint universe. Slowly, gradually, piece by piece. But it'll happen.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Outside_85 is offline   #5
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In essence they 'undid' COIE with Infinite Crisis.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Mark MacMillan is offline   #6
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In essence they 'undid' COIE with Infinite Crisis.
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Disagree. To me, it was more like 1986 to 1991/92 again after Infinite Crisis (more emphasis on characters and concepts like the retooling of the Charlton and Fawcett characters and concepts, Checkmate, Booster Gold, etc, having their own books again, a new Flash, multiple Earth GL's and GL books, etc,) with a lot of the same pre-IC trappings.

As far as multiple universes go, I never found multiple universes confusing when I was little reading my family's old books, and I know most kids don't either since cartoons like Ben 10, Generator Rex, TMNT, G.I. Joe, etc, have all dealt with multiple universes.

Same with Anime (like Full Metal Alchemist for example) and TV Shows like Sliders, Star Trek, Fringe, etc.

As to the OP's question. No, I don't want to go back to the Bronze Age/pre-1985.

I don't want to go back to pre-FP either.

I want to be provided with entertaining books to read. They don't all necessarily have to be my cup of tea, but as long as quality effort was put into the crafting of each direction and book being offered by the publisher, I'm sure I could find some more things to like amongst their selection of comics than I am currently.

So my vote is for more line wide quality and substance.

DC made their bed. Now deal with it DC and try to make something good out of it, because after 30yrs of dividing your fanbase with each event you have put out that should know by now that you can only please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people, all of the time.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   JRM is offline   #7
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Here's how it works:

1. DC reboots.

2. Elements of the preboot universe gradually start working their way back into the reboot universe.

3. It gets to the point where both universes are considered to be parts of one big history.

4. Repeat.

Seriously, by the time DC did Flashpoint, it was like Crisis on Infinite Earths had never happened. The multiverse was back, Bat-Mite was back, multiple colors of kryptonite were back. Everything that DC used CoIE to get rid of eventually found it's way back. By that point, even stories like "The Caveman from Krypton" were being acknowledged as part of history again.

So it's not really necessary to ask DC to bring back the pre-CoIE universe. It had already come back. And it will again. As will the pre-Flashpoint universe. Slowly, gradually, piece by piece. But it'll happen.
ddf
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Sadly true, especially when the parts that really do deserve to be chucked come back like a bad penny.

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Old April 14th, 2013   Sp33df0rc3 is offline   #8
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Also, going back to Pre-COIE means that you have multiple earths again, and that means the JSA is still on a different earth, as is Captain Marvel and the Charlton characters etc etc. IMO, if you're going to undo it, just go back to the pre-flashpoint, which had all those world integrated into one. I never really got what the anger was over COIE, since all it did was integrate all the characters into one world, which makes way more sense. Pre-COIE is just a confusing mess, hence why COIE happened in the first place.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   flashsuper is offline   #9
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Also, going back to Pre-COIE means that you have multiple earths again, and that means the JSA is still on a different earth, as is Captain Marvel and the Charlton characters etc etc. IMO, if you're going to undo it, just go back to the pre-flashpoint, which had all those world integrated into one. I never really got what the anger was over COIE, since all it did was integrate all the characters into one world, which makes way more sense. Pre-COIE is just a confusing mess, hence why COIE happened in the first place.
ddf
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I would do pre-flashpoint and just right after brightest day. That way everyone dead is back. EVERYONE. Even Roy Harper's daughter. Every dead hero, villain and supporting character to who and what they were EXACTLY at the moment of their deaths. Then we can get some real writing done with the existing characters. Make real writers out of the current talent pool (although that might bea subjective comment) and let them deal with all the situations resulting in those brought back. It would make for good storytelling. Use the tools you have/had DC.

I don't know who else agrees with what I am about to say, but I always felt that DC did the reboot because they felt things were so screwed up with all the damage that they had done with various characters over the years that they believed themselves written into a corner and had no other way our except for starting over.

They might have said that the DC history was so huge and hard to follow and not conducive to new readers (i.e. not new-reader friendly), but come on. Part of being a follower of so much history was being able to find and collect the back issues of those characters that you loved.

Marvel also has a huge and sometimes convoluted history and has had many, MANY events that changed the status quo of many characters, but THEY can continue on and just keep on writing. Some good, some bad, but they do not start over from scratch (or start over except for the written word of the office favorites.)

Now I'm just getting myself all worked up.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   flashsuper is offline   #10
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Oh, one more thing. Find someone to purchase DC from the controlling party and get someone in charge of the line that knows the industry and what makes it tick. Not someone that THINKS that they know.

Just because you build it does not mean that people will come.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Eric Q is offline   #11
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Oh, one more thing. Find someone to purchase DC from the controlling party and get someone in charge of the line that knows the industry and what makes it tick. Not someone that THINKS that they know.

Just because you build it does not mean that people will come.
ddf
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It'd be easier if they place people more suited for the job than buy DC. Since DC is a cash cow, I can only see Time Warner selling if they are hurting for money or the buyer is someone like Bill Gates.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Eric Q is offline   #12
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I rather they let continuity take a backseat and take an All Star approach. Let anything in the property's mythology be available to be used. Make it reader friendly and treat each issue/story as if it were the creator's last. Crossovers, events, etc. can be done but they need creator approval.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   Gremlin is offline   #13
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1 thought, it would mean I would come back to comics...

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Old April 14th, 2013   Gremlin is offline   #14
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Although, I did start reading MADMAN again, recently...


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Old April 14th, 2013   Alan is offline   #15
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1985 was 28 years ago. Lots of comic buyers weren't even born then, so you are looking at something which only appeals to the over 40's.

Is that really where we should be heading?

It's my era too, so I know what you are getting at, and I was perfectly happy with the pre-Crisis era in some ways. But actually lots of it was boring as hell, and going backwards is never a great idea.

And even you are happy to tamper with it to include your own favourites (Jaime as Blue Beetle rather than Ted Kord for instance), so it will never please everyone as we all have our own ideal DC world.

So stop worrying and let the writers etc get on with it, for good or bad.

There is nothing wrong with buying good comics from all companies. I do, and would buy more from all if I could afford it. There is a lot of good stuff out there, including from DC.
 
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Old April 14th, 2013   1peace is offline   #16
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1985 was 28 years ago. Lots of comic buyers weren't even born then, so you are looking at something which only appeals to the over 40's.

Is that really where we should be heading?

It's my era too, so I know what you are getting at, and I was perfectly happy with the pre-Crisis era in some ways. But actually lots of it was boring as hell, and going backwards is never a great idea.

And even you are happy to tamper with it to include your own favourites (Jaime as Blue Beetle rather than Ted Kord for instance), so it will never please everyone as we all have our own ideal DC world.

So stop worrying and let the writers etc get on with it, for good or bad.

There is nothing wrong with buying good comics from all companies. I do, and would buy more from all if I could afford it. There is a lot of good stuff out there, including from DC.
ddf
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us old comic book guys are never going to happy at this point.
our time has pasted pretty much as far a continuity goes it seems to me.

i can't imagine our wives moaning as bad as we do over their soap opera characters . even if they were unaging like our soap opera characters. would Luke and Laura from general hospital or Susan Lucy still be doing the same, acting the same or have to have the same history after 25-30 years?

DC comic characters and history has jump the shark more than a few times but come back as well. I'm not sure judging the future by the past is the best. It may not be as good as it was or as bad but it can't really stay the same and grow. Even if we don't agree with the direction.
At this point its just a such a mix i can't really follow it anymore. i don't even try. I just hope for a cool story now and then. even if the character i knew as "X" is now from a different planet, dimension, timeline, has different powers and is now a women.

the old days were great but they are gone. I hope new writers can bring some juice.
 
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