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Old February 1st, 2015   BART ALLEN is offline   #1
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Default Was Watchmen ect really good for comics

Everyone but me recognizes that Watchmen , Miricleman ect by Alan Moore is better then anything comics has done before and maybe better then every thing combined.

It seems to me these books have done more damage to comics then good long term let me explain why.

-Books like these and Dark Knight are to me just mean spirited version of these character , by people who are ashamed to be reading comics , since historically they are an all-ages Medium and thus if you are over 12 you should not be reading them. SO they can show cursing and nude people they are not for kids .
And since they are for adults they must be great!!!

along the way writers who grew up with these books entered the indurstry and figured this is how you write comics so THE JOYLESS COMICS was born (look at Man of steel or the latest Batman movies) Comic heroes are no longer full Wonder but the hero has to be grounded in a SO-called reality (like a man flying is realilistic) . As they got really people became less embarassed about reading them so you get to the point today you have to look at a mainstream Batman or Superman book as a parant before you can buy it for you kids. THis has killed a roadway into kids being a life long reader of all books since kids no longer read comics because they not made for kids to read.

Does this stunt Growth of the Indurstryif you can not get them when they are young and Nutish them , now I am not saying all books should be all ages friendly, but the main superman and batman should be. THen again like with comedians adding in a few four letter words make it easier to laugh, or in comics case to look cool.

A true all ages book is harder to write then one that uses Nudity and Cursing and Violence as a crutch, The few book that can inspire an 8 or an 80 year old is what we need today. We need the comic book equivalent of Harry Potter, But as long as we continue to be embarassed by comic and insist they be "cool" we are never going to get that, becuase boobies and four letter words are so cool.

Sorry about this but I needed somewhere to get this off my chest. you can now insult me
 
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Old February 1st, 2015   TJLamb0518 is offline   #2
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Ok, point of clarification...if the POSTER says it's ok to insult him, will the mods and admins go along with that?

As to the point of the thread, comics have been dying the slow death for decades now. Sorry, but the light fluff we were fgetting before Dark Knight Return and Watchmen were only reinforcing what people who didn't read comics thought about them. The industry needed the kick in the pants to make them more respectable, more mainstream....graphic novels instead of funny books. I'll also go so far as to say that without books like DKR and Watchmen showing the companies that going out on a limb and being daring could pay off, we would not have gotten things like....Hawkworld or yes, even Impulse.




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Old February 1st, 2015   Arcademan/PixieP is offline   #3
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Someone go and give Bart CPR now.
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Old February 1st, 2015   BART ALLEN is offline   #4
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Ok, point of clarification...if the POSTER says it's ok to insult him, will the mods and admins go along with that?

As to the point of the thread, comics have been dying the slow death for decades now. Sorry, but the light fluff we were fgetting before Dark Knight Return and Watchmen were only reinforcing what people who didn't read comics thought about them. The industry needed the kick in the pants to make them more respectable, more mainstream....graphic novels instead of funny books. I'll also go so far as to say that without books like DKR and Watchmen showing the companies that going out on a limb and being daring could pay off, we would not have gotten things like....Hawkworld or yes, even Impulse.




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you have illustrated another problem I have with the Dark Knight and Watchmen the feeling that fans of those two works feel the necessity to put down every other comic ever made by calling them fluff and such. The elitist attitude that fans of these books have is kind of funny. I wonder if they do it because they are ashamed to be reading comics that has historically Ben and all ages genre. Comics existed and we're doing fine before Watchmen the Dark Knight. I am sure if they never existed comments would still be here another I



.




sometimes I feel about comics the same way I feel about current television is that people are ashamed to admit they watch comics or read television that they must justify it by saying look it has cursing nudity and violence it must be for adults.


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Old February 1st, 2015   BART ALLEN is offline   #5
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another thing about calling the books for them fluff is it is insulting tour the creators of the books beforehand which without Watchmen and Dark Knight could not exist
 
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Old February 2nd, 2015   Alan is offline   #6
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I don't know about you, but I am an adult, therefore I enjoy TV programmes made for adults, and there is a hell of a lot of good stuff being produced now. I love things like Breaking Bad. I don't watch children's TV.

So, as a person who has grown up with comics and is the same sort of age as Alan Moore, Frank Miller etc, I can still read them because they are aimed at adults now. As that is now the market for comics, the industry would be bloody stupid to aim it back at 10 year olds now.

Is it a good thing? Yes. If you want to read simple, old fashioned comics we are in a position now where almost everything that HAS been made is readily available, so go buy a collection of old stuff. If you want to read comics about angst and violence read the current stuff. I do both. It's easy.

All Moore did was raise the bar, and thank heavens he did.
 
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Old February 2nd, 2015   Danny Perkins is offline   #7
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The industry is in a tought spot. The main market is adult and wants adult content. But I want to expose my 8 year old to the idea of going to the shop and buying new comics. However, I'll never let him read a current book since it is not appropriate for him. So they make an "All Ages" version of the book (marvel has tried this several times) but nobody buys it so it gets cancelled.

My son doesn't want a dumbed down aga appropriate version of Spider-man. He wants THE Spider-man. And he can tell the difference.

I'm not sure how i would address the issue if I were in charge, because it is a significant problem for the industry.
 
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Old February 2nd, 2015   BART ALLEN is offline   #8
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I don't know about you, but I am an adult, therefore I enjoy TV programmes made for adults, and there is a hell of a lot of good stuff being produced now. I love things like Breaking Bad. I don't watch children's TV.

So, as a person who has grown up with comics and is the same sort of age as Alan Moore, Frank Miller etc, I can still read them because they are aimed at adults now. As that is now the market for comics, the industry would be bloody stupid to aim it back at 10 year olds now.

Is it a good thing? Yes. If you want to read simple, old fashioned comics we are in a position now where almost everything that HAS been made is readily available, so go buy a collection of old stuff. If you want to read comics about angst and violence read the current stuff. I do both. It's easy.

All Moore did was raise the bar, and thank heavens he did.
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Comics are trying too hard for the adult audience and loosing the younger audience. THier is nothing wrong with thier being books for adults, but when companies put out special material for all ages have we gone to far in the other direction. Alot of what i see aimed toward adults is nothing more then more cursing, more boobs and more violence nothing deeper.

Moore raise the bar for more violence, sex and cursing , can he write a story with out a rape? could he write a story that could be enjoyed by all ages . (that is why i think Multiversity proves once and for all he is a superior writer to moore , going from Pax-maerican (a deep deep story) to Thunderworld (and old fashion fun story) but that is another thing).What can enjoyed be enjoyed by an 8 and 80 year old is far harder then writing one that can be enjoyed by an 8 or and 80 year old.

to the earlier person who said we got IMpulse due to Watch men i would say in spite of Watchmen, when Impulse#1 first came out according to Mark Waid in The Highly Recogmended FLASH COMPANION (hi Kieth Dallas) one editer at dc hated it and was running around the office going where the gloom wheres the agnst?

I think long term they gave us with few exception comics with out heart. THe JOYLESS COMIC. If I had to name the modern age i would call it the JOYLESS age, At the store we were making fun of the weird way Nicola Scott drew facing on the new teen titans convergence because they smiling something you never see anymore.

It seems like most writesr in modern comics went to the Alan Moore / Frank Miller school of Joyless comics. It seems that is all they know , I for one hope most comics book writers lives are happier then thier stories make them out to be.
 
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Old February 2nd, 2015   Amentep is offline   #9
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It seems like most writesr in modern comics went to the Alan Moore / Frank Miller school of Joyless comics.
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I think this is more the problem than anything else with superhero comics (I don't feel comfortable lumping all comics in this).

The problem isn't that Alan Moore wrote WATCHMEN or that Frank Miller wrote THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

The problem was the legion of people who followed who think that there's nothing else to do but try to top those stories in superhero comics. There's a lot of good to take from how these stories approached storytelling (and I admit to hating TDKR, but if I'm honest you can take some good ideas about approaching story, character and setting from the book) but what happened (and still happens) seems to be surface imitation, IMO.
 
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Old February 2nd, 2015   WeirdoLegionnaire is offline   #10
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Adults compose the majority of the comic book reading audience. Plus the majority of the movie-going audience, and the majority of the "disposable income" audience.

Have you been to a Hot Topic or the equivalent lately? It's swamped with amazing comic stuff. Heck, Hot Topic's Valentine's Day theme this year is "Mad Love" and based around DC Comics.

As long as that's the case, 90% of comics will be aimed at adults. There's still plenty of stuff kids can read too (my nephews love the current Aquaman and JLU series), but just realize they aren't the ones paying the bills.
 
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Old February 2nd, 2015   Amentep is offline   #11
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I'll also say this in the "+" category for Watchmen, V for Vendetta, and TDKR - they pretty much launched the trade paperback market. Sure there were trades prior to them, and there would have continued to be if they didn't exist. But I'm not sure that the kind of trade market that really buoyed SANDMAN and early Vertigo would have existed if not for those key successes that put US comics back in the hands of the public at large (rather than the comic shop going fan).
 
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Old February 2nd, 2015   Alan is offline   #12
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And it's largely the trade audience that has made comics buoyant, giving them an almost infinite shelf life, as opposed to the 'there and gone' ways of the era before that, where all the money was in the collectors market.

I don't regard today's comics as any more joyless than they were in the 70's and 80's. There is nothing more joyless than a badly written and poorly drawn piece of crap, the sort of thing you would get most months in Marvel Team Up, or Marvel Two In One, or almost anything DC was publishing in 1980.

Standards are SO much higher now. Really. Bart keeps pointing out there is no fun in comics now, it can be found all over the place, from a whole bunch of companies, there is way too much good stuff to keep up with in most weeks.

There is lots of room for all sorts of comics, and a quick flick around Comixology any given Wednesday will show you that's exactly what there is.

Just look.
 
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Old February 5th, 2015   Mr. Wrong is offline   #13
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Those influential comics of the early 80s were good for comics as an art form. They mainstreamed storytelling techniques and aesthetics that treated the reader more intelligently than typical DC or Marvel superhero comics of the time. This was pretty much the first time that the sophisticated storytelling (I'm talking art, design, production, content, etc.) developed mostly at smaller publishers (with far less production quality on average) between the '70s and the '80s was applied to mainstream superhero fare. Marvel, Archie Goodwin, specifically (bless him) laid a whole lot of groundwork for this, and occasionally had mainstream success with the EPIC line. It just never exploded like DKR, WATCHMEN, etc.

And, Miller & Moore both score very high in terms of the number of works they had published around the time that were all part of this influence.
-Miller: DKR, RONIN, ELEKTRA: ASSASSIN, DAREDEVIL: LOVE AND WAR (Bill Sienkiewicz deserves mention for his huge part in that influence as well; he was pushing comic book art way beyond anything it had seen before.) DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN, BATMAN: YEAR ONE (Mazzuccelli deserves mention too, as his work on these two titles was groundbreaking)
-Moore: SWAMP THING, WATCHMEN, V FOR VENDETTA, THE KILLING JOKE, and I'm not even including his UK work from the time because it probably wouldn't have been so influential if Moore hadn't broken through in the States, which came about largely due to his work listed above. (His artist-collaborators on those projects deserve equal mention, of course.)

Because of the success of their work, greats like Matt Wagner, Howard Chaykin, and Tim Truman, who had been doing great work for the smaller publishers, were considered marketable on mainstream superhero comics. And of course they paved the way for Gaiman, Morrison, McKean, and the rest of the early-Vertigo "gang".
Man, there was so much innovation in the medium at that time!

So yes, good for comics as a medium, as a creative, artistic product.

Good for specifically mainstream superheroes?
Yes and no. At that time you could see the targeted demographic shift happening all around you.
"Ah, so these older readers will pay $15 for a well-produced graphic novel featuring a popular character typically geared towards a rapidly-drying-up younger audience presented in a more "mature" format and aesthetic? Something we can market in mainstream bookstores? Meaning, re-entry into the mainstream market that we were forced out of when magazine distributors crowded us off the shelves in favor of higher-priced traditional magazines? Why yes, we'll have some of that!" Makes perfect sense. The age of the audience was already shifting, Marvel and DC just figured out how to earn big sales AND critical acclaim (which would theoretically attract MORE older readers) by targeting those buyers.

Did they inspire what most who complain of the darkening of superheroes, the "grim 'n' grit" that became so popular, actually cite as such? Probably. They can't be held responsible for inferior imitations, though. Or even imitation that specific.
What Moore & Miller & co. really caused to happen, in the broadest sense, was the for potential for creative freedom not typically found in Marvel or DC Comics to become much more prevalent. When placed in that context, they would be just as responsible for allowing for something like Darwyn Cooke's NEW FRONTIER or even TINY TITANS as for Morrison's DOOM PATROL or Gaiman's SANDMAN. Writers and artists were suddenly far less interchangeable on average; under the right circumstances they were granted a lot more latitude to tell the story their way. This could be wonderful or horrendous depending on the creators in question and the aesthetic preferences of the individual reader.

The evolution of mainstream comics was a net win for storytelling quality. The "grim 'n' gritty" trend that resulted was a mixed bag, and like all trends, was bloated with crap before it finally imploded and found its equilibrium.
Lots of really great, quality "fun" comics came about, probably as much in reaction to the grim 'n' gritty trend as for any other reason.

It is frustrating that so few mainstream superhero comics are marketed towards a younger demographic. But that demographic is tiny, and if DC and Marvel could make money targeting younger readers, they would be doing so right now. And they do target that demographic with superhero stuff; just not their comics.
 
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Old February 5th, 2015   manwithnoname is offline   #14
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Not everything has to be all ages. Some stories must be for younger audiences just as some stories must be only mature audiences.

Some stories can be all ages.

It's all about the story and it's execution. Doesn't matter if there is nudity and cursing; it's all about execution.

Watchmen and TDKR showed readers comics can be more than "funny books". Both showed we can have all ages and everything in between.

Look at prose books, they offer EVERYTHING for everybody.

Example, true crime books. Shouldn't there be all ages true crime books? No.

A separate issue is creators and publishers went crazy following the success of Watchmen. They went crazy with throwing nudity and cursing into comics and calling it good.

Every entertainment medium has varying levels of good and bad executed stories.

Should Showtime offer an all ages Game of Thrones? All ages Y: the Last Man? All ages American Horror Story?

Hell no.
 
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Old February 6th, 2015   Alan is offline   #15
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Not everything has to be all ages. Some stories must be for younger audiences just as some stories must be only mature audiences.

Some stories can be all ages.

It's all about the story and it's execution. Doesn't matter if there is nudity and cursing; it's all about execution.

Watchmen and TDKR showed readers comics can be more than "funny books". Both showed we can have all ages and everything in between.

Look at prose books, they offer EVERYTHING for everybody.

Example, true crime books. Shouldn't there be all ages true crime books? No.

A separate issue is creators and publishers went crazy following the success of Watchmen. They went crazy with throwing nudity and cursing into comics and calling it good.

Every entertainment medium has varying levels of good and bad executed stories.

Should Showtime offer an all ages Game of Thrones? All ages Y: the Last Man? All ages American Horror Story?

Hell no.
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Old February 6th, 2015   Danny Perkins is offline   #16
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The problem with most fanciest once they read a mature audiences book they don't want to read an all ages book anymore
 
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