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Old November 16th, 2006   Ohoni is offline   #65
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Robin .. a kids name huh? A little red songbird .. huh? Just lame .. huh?

Just Robin is lame ... not every other heroes name when you think about it? Named after animals? Named after energy bursts? Super, Wonder ... man, woman, boy, girl ... not all lame.

Sorry Ohoni .. this is a matter of perspective for me. What you are used to and what you are willing to accept as lame and not lame.
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Robin as a real name is different from Robin as a code name (and if we were talking about Ollie or Roy on this one you might have a point there). I'm a huge Robin fan in the comics, so it's not like I don't like the name in general, I just think it's a silly name for a full adult to be using. It'd be like if Shadowcat still went by "sprite", or Arsenal still went by "Speedy".
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   Jake1823 is offline   #66
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Robin as a real name is different from Robin as a code name (and if we were talking about Ollie or Roy on this one you might have a point there). I'm a huge Robin fan in the comics, so it's not like I don't like the name in general, I just think it's a silly name for a full adult to be using. It'd be like if Shadowcat still went by "sprite", or Arsenal still went by "Speedy".
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I can't believe I'm going to say this...

I agree.




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Old November 16th, 2006   Mark MacMillan is offline   #67
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Robin as a real name is different from Robin as a code name (and if we were talking about Ollie or Roy on this one you might have a point there). I'm a huge Robin fan in the comics, so it's not like I don't like the name in general, I just think it's a silly name for a full adult to be using. It'd be like if Shadowcat still went by "sprite", or Arsenal still went by "Speedy".
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It's too bad they didn't give him the Raven moniker. He could've even kept the "R" incorporated somewhere on his costume.

But I guess Raven was considered to be too feminine a name back in the day?
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #68
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It's too bad they didn't give him the Raven moniker. He could've even kept the "R" incorporated somewhere on his costume.

But I guess Raven was considered to be too feminine a name back in the day?
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Tell that to Wally Wood and the THUNDER Agent that went by that name.
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   Hari Seldon is offline   #69
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That's really how I saw it, too. The Wolfman/ Perez rationalization of Dick no longer wanting to be the back half of "Batman and..." fell flat with me, simply because Robin had been his own character for quite a few years.
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Yup.

As a kid, even before I got into comics I never bought into the whole idea of sidekicks - it's one aspect of the genre that always struck me as incredibly....silly. And that's the nicest way I can put that. So when I started reading Batman in the early 1980s, Robin was off at college. When he did show up, he was like a guest star...made his own decisions...was his own man. Suddenly Robin wasn't a walking joke anymore, tainting one of my favorite concepts. Evolution.

Still, I never read Titans comics (again...sidekicks...), so I missed the whole Robin-Nightwing transformation. Couldn't care less, either way.

But a couple of years ago my daughters got into the Teen Titans Go cartoon, in a big way. Watching that with them, I got to see the appeal of a group of teen heroes hangin' out. Especially Robin - the premiere teen hero. He made a great leader, which only makes sense given who raised this kid. Robin had all of Batman's best qualities, except he fused it with better social skills, and maybe a healthier, happier emotional outlook.

Great character. I don't think the identity / codename makes a difference - the important element of his character is him overcoming his childhood tragedy with the help of a tremendous father figure, who turned him into one of the world's greatest heroes and leaders. Dick Grayson is, in short, Batman's greatest accomplishment - codenames be ****ed.

As for the "what if" regarding his Nightwing transformation...if that didn't take place, I'm sure that post-Crisis Jason Todd would have ceased to be. Then a few years into the post-Crisis reboot, Batman would have met a young orphan named Dick Grayson...
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   jonnjonz is offline   #70
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Tell that to Wally Wood and the THUNDER Agent that went by that name.
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You tell it to him! You're the one who brought it up!
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   Mark MacMillan is offline   #71
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Great character. I don't think the identity / codename makes a difference - the important element of his character is him overcoming his childhood tragedy with the help of a tremendous father figure, who turned him into one of the world's greatest heroes and leaders. Dick Grayson is, in short, Batman's greatest accomplishment - codenames be ****ed.
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I know it's extremely trivial, but codenames can attract the curious. Just like good titles help movies/novels sell. Sometimes it's the little things that stand out to a person for whatever reason.

As for the "what if" regarding his Nightwing transformation...if that didn't take place, I'm sure that post-Crisis Jason Todd would have ceased to be. Then a few years into the post-Crisis reboot, Batman would have met a young orphan named Dick Grayson...
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Agreed. They didn't reboot The New Teen Titans or that's exactly what would have happened.
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   just_will is offline   #72
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Considering its history with Superman and Krypton, I like it. It's also clearly NOT a 1990 generic name like "Strong Guy" or "Flex"
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   Can1 is offline   #73
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Maybe, but the point I was making is that the companies are reluctant to make permanent changes to the costumes of their "big" characters that does not include a whole new identity being created.
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I think that was true inthe past ... I think we are seeing that management acknowledges that the licensed image and the published image can vary ... and even in the case of things like the Titans Go show .. there can be several interpretations of the licensed character

Again ... who knows what could have happened ... just speculation for all of us at this point
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   Can1 is offline   #74
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Robin as a real name is different from Robin as a code name (and if we were talking about Ollie or Roy on this one you might have a point there). I'm a huge Robin fan in the comics, so it's not like I don't like the name in general, I just think it's a silly name for a full adult to be using. It'd be like if Shadowcat still went by "sprite", or Arsenal still went by "Speedy".
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I was going to be snide here ... but since you were being sincere .. I won't be a dick about this (no pun intended)

As far as names .. code or otherwise for heroes ... to me ... all of these names are essentially juvenile .... there is nothing adult in my mind about calling oneself or having oneself referred to as Batman or Superman or Wonder Woman ... which IMO is the reason we have seen so many rationalizations for these names in the last decade or two ... because the entire notion of costumed heroes and villians is pretty juvenile ... and when you attempt to make the stories appeal to a more adult audience that juvenile nature only becomes more (and not less) obvious ... so IMO you either acknowledge the elephant in the room and admit the entore thing is hugely silly in premise ... or you invent even more elaborate rationalizations to convince yourself that its not
 
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Old November 16th, 2006   Can1 is offline   #75
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You tell it to him! You're the one who brought it up!
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Old November 17th, 2006   Fletcher Hawke is offline   #76
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I was going to be snide here ... but since you were being sincere .. I won't be a dick about this (no pun intended)

As far as names .. code or otherwise for heroes ... to me ... all of these names are essentially juvenile .... there is nothing adult in my mind about calling oneself or having oneself referred to as Batman or Superman or Wonder Woman ... which IMO is the reason we have seen so many rationalizations for these names in the last decade or two ... because the entire notion of costumed heroes and villians is pretty juvenile ... and when you attempt to make the stories appeal to a more adult audience that juvenile nature only becomes more (and not less) obvious ... so IMO you either acknowledge the elephant in the room and admit the entore thing is hugely silly in premise ... or you invent even more elaborate rationalizations to convince yourself that its not
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There are a lot of absurdities to be accepted with superheroes, but codenames are a pretty minor one. Or at the very least, one that is common enough otherwise that it really is moot. The Nomme du Guerre is an idea as old as combat itself. A "nickname" either taken or given, distinguishing a participant from the pedestrian or other participants. Sometimes out of context it seems silly. But anywhere someone can distinguish him/herself by skill and ability--or maintains some level of anonymity--from combat (Red Baron) to sport (The Refridgerator) to literature (Mark Twain) to computer "interactions" (including this message board, Can1 ) a "cover name" is found. Sometimes it's even just because the name you have doesn't seem dignified/tough enough (John Wayne=Marion Michael Morrisson). Others it is because of a skillset or tendency "in the field" (The Intimidator in NASCAR). Fighter pilots, racers, athletes, hackers-- hell, probably kids at spelling bees and folks in quilting guilds.

Maybe it's all juvenile. Or maybe it's psychological. Or maybe it's just what it is. But I certainly don't see how the use in comic books is any more absurd than anywhere else.
 
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Old November 17th, 2006   Can1 is offline   #77
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There are a lot of absurdities to be accepted with superheroes, but codenames are a pretty minor one. Or at the very least, one that is common enough otherwise that it really is moot. The Nomme du Guerre is an idea as old as combat itself. A "nickname" either taken or given, distinguishing a participant from the pedestrian or other participants. Sometimes out of context it seems silly. But anywhere someone can distinguish him/herself by skill and ability--or maintains some level of anonymity--from combat (Red Baron) to sport (The Refridgerator) to literature (Mark Twain) to computer "interactions" (including this message board, Can1 ) a "cover name" is found. Sometimes it's even just because the name you have doesn't seem dignified/tough enough (John Wayne=Marion Michael Morrisson). Others it is because of a skillset or tendency "in the field" (The Intimidator in NASCAR). Fighter pilots, racers, athletes, hackers-- hell, probably kids at spelling bees and folks in quilting guilds.

Maybe it's all juvenile. Or maybe it's psychological. Or maybe it's just what it is. But I certainly don't see how the use in comic books is any more absurd than anywhere else.
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so then admittedly the name Robin itself is not necesarily anymore juvenile than any other code name ... its just ath people have been conditioned to associate youth with it the way folks have been conditioned to associate sex with certain fem names
 
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Old November 17th, 2006   Fletcher Hawke is offline   #78
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so then admittedly the name Robin itself is not necesarily anymore juvenile than any other code name ... its just ath people have been conditioned to associate youth with it the way folks have been conditioned to associate sex with certain fem names
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For the record, I'm always wary of anyone who tries to characterize anything as "juvenile." It tends to mark someone who is insecure in their own maturity.

I, personally, never made any statement as to the fitness of "Robin" as a codename in the first-place. Although there are arguements to be made as to how appropriate it may be.

Going from the angle of robin the bird--which, in the case of the comic book Robin is hard to get around with the colors of the costume, no matter the original intent of the design--the name does have a fairly "soft" connotation. This is a songbird. Grace. Joy. Sunlight. These are the kind of images that are likely to come to mind. While songbirds can be quite aggressive, that is far from what most people will think of. The robin is the bird of Spring, after all. This is why the name is often tied to the youthful and/or feminine. Not solely because of a comic book.

"Robin" also has some connotation as a trickster. Both relating to some mythology and as connected to Robin Hood (it is worth noting that this is also tied back to the song bird and its "flighty" nature).

Then you get into the various images generated from the name of Robin Hood.

First off, obviously, the bow. I think we can throw that out for this situation. Dick, Jason, Tim, etc. have never been shown as having much of any connection there, unless it was in a novelty story.

Displaced nobility? Well, in Tim's case, it sort of fits. But with Dick and most of the others it would rather be the reverse. Orphans brought into the priveledged class.

Cunning and the above mentioned mischief-making do fit, at least somewhat.

Leadership. There is one which fits, as evidenced by both Dick and Tim on the Titans and YJ.

Roguish attraction. I think we can keep that. Dick's one of the most...admired men in the DCU, and Tim seems to be getting there.

So, going more with the Robin Hood aspect, the name could be more readily appropriate to the characters, no matter age or gender. But it would require a costume and attitude more evocative of the concept, especially when the one element most people are going to recognize as a Robin Hood reference is the bow, which is not present.

As is, the bird comes more to mind. And it is a harder sell with a serious, adult character. At least one in the vein of the Bat family. It's not impossible. It can work--Tim is doing quite well with it. But it's also likely to end up feeling like false attitude superimposed on a cartoon figure (such as the Red Robin concept).
 
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Old November 17th, 2006   Can1 is offline   #79
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For the record, I'm always wary of anyone who tries to characterize anything as "juvenile." It tends to mark someone who is insecure in their own maturity.

I, personally, never made any statement as to the fitness of "Robin" as a codename in the first-place. Although there are arguements to be made as to how appropriate it may be.

Going from the angle of robin the bird--which, in the case of the comic book Robin is hard to get around with the colors of the costume, no matter the original intent of the design--the name does have a fairly "soft" connotation. This is a songbird. Grace. Joy. Sunlight. These are the kind of images that are likely to come to mind. While songbirds can be quite aggressive, that is far from what most people will think of. The robin is the bird of Spring, after all. This is why the name is often tied to the youthful and/or feminine. Not solely because of a comic book.

"Robin" also has some connotation as a trickster. Both relating to some mythology and as connected to Robin Hood (it is worth noting that this is also tied back to the song bird and its "flighty" nature).

Then you get into the various images generated from the name of Robin Hood.

First off, obviously, the bow. I think we can throw that out for this situation. Dick, Jason, Tim, etc. have never been shown as having much of any connection there, unless it was in a novelty story.

Displaced nobility? Well, in Tim's case, it sort of fits. But with Dick and most of the others it would rather be the reverse. Orphans brought into the priveledged class.

Cunning and the above mentioned mischief-making do fit, at least somewhat.

Leadership. There is one which fits, as evidenced by both Dick and Tim on the Titans and YJ.

Roguish attraction. I think we can keep that. Dick's one of the most...admired men in the DCU, and Tim seems to be getting there.

So, going more with the Robin Hood aspect, the name could be more readily appropriate to the characters, no matter age or gender. But it would require a costume and attitude more evocative of the concept, especially when the one element most people are going to recognize as a Robin Hood reference is the bow, which is not present.

As is, the bird comes more to mind. And it is a harder sell with a serious, adult character. At least one in the vein of the Bat family. It's not impossible. It can work--Tim is doing quite well with it. But it's also likely to end up feeling like false attitude superimposed on a cartoon figure (such as the Red Robin concept).
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I am not sure why you choose to lead into your response in the manner you did .. but in all honesty after reading the inference about insecurity and maturity .. I really could not care what else followed.

My use of the word 'juvenile' was intended to completely harmless nd in no way a veiled attack on anyone elses beliefs. I am a 44 year old man who takes great pleasure in reading comics ... I have never hidden this fact from anyone who knows me ... but I refuse to ignore the obvious .. comics appeal to the kid in my soul .... and that is not the same thing as saying that comics are for kids .. but everything about superhero comics screams juvenile to me .. and some may see this as a bad thing .. but I see this as a very, very good thing ... especially whe a writer and artist undertsnad this and does not take him or herself and the story they are telling too seriously

Past this I have nothing else to say to you
Last edited by Can1; November 17th, 2006 at 12:38 PM.
 
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Old November 17th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #80
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Soooo....anyway. Let's face it, whether he's Robin, Red Robin or Nightwing, we can agree it's a good thing Mr. Grayson isn't still wearing the disco shirt with golden wingy/Spider-Man web things under the arms.
 
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