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Old April 18th, 2013   Amentep is offline   #113
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<sigh> Does it really matter anymore at this point?

Isn't organizational stability and line wide quality the real problem?
ddf
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Yes.

I think the editorial driven steamroller approach has made for bad comics.

You all may remember that while I didn't like the reboot idea, I generally was of the opinion that if the books were good the continuity didn't matter. But really I've felt like a lot of the series have not been good; stories and elements seem forced in and bottom line I'm not happy with the product.

I could easily see myself, in a few months, down to two DC comics because I don't buy stuff that doesn't continue to entertain and interest me.
 
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Old April 18th, 2013   Penny Dreadful is offline   #114
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This is my opinion.

The real problem was never with post-COIE continuity.
It wasn't legacy heroes.
It wasn't the married heroes who had families.
It wasn't even the number of people who had the same or similar codenames.

No. It wasn't that.

The real problem was the way the place was run. It was a problem before the nuCoke DCU, and it remains a problem, because the same people responsible for DC's misfires in the past decade are still in charge.

Looking back, it seems the bulk of DC's good comics during the past decade happened with minimal editorial interference (52, the Sinestro Corps War). I don't think those kinds of stories are possible anymore with the way the company is now run.
 
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Old April 18th, 2013   mego joe is offline   #115
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See, I never agree with this argument. As a child of 4 or 5 reading comics, the whole multiple earth, duplicate yet different characters by the same name didn't confuse me at all. I simply thought it was cool as heck. Hell, I wanted to know MORE about these older characters. This was part of what set DC apart for me. They had backstory. There was an endless well of stories for me to seek out and explore. Of course editors and writers would give you a little blurb then to explain anything that might be confusing... to complicated a concept these days I suppose. *rolls eyes*
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Agree agree agree!
 
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Old April 18th, 2013   mego joe is offline   #116
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This thread has inspired me to reread "Flash of Two Worlds" and the other early Barry/ Jay stories. They are so much fun and it reminds me how much I miss Jay and the other JSAers.
 
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Old April 18th, 2013   JRM is offline   #117
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<sigh> Does it really matter anymore at this point?

Isn't organizational stability and line wide quality the real problem?
ddf
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Agreed, going over the past choices endlessly matters little; however, with even stronger agreement, currently Editorial and the reflected line wide quality remain the problem. I think that Johns and Lee can bring significant strengths to a line that is solid - but not with a line that as a whole has lost its way. The problem is that very few of their "fixes" have worked. The why is up to speculation, but the fact is that DC as a whole produced more well crafted books a decade ago than right now.

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Old April 19th, 2013   imarriedsatanII is offline   #118
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I agree, but I don't know how much of that a "casual reader" would embrace, and catering to the fans you already have is the first step to stagnation.
ddf
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I was 4 or 5. I was about as "casual" a reader as there can be. What DC doesn't need is for long-term readers to convert to "casual readers." They need to convert the "casual readers" into long-term readers.

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Old April 19th, 2013   Sp33df0rc3 is offline   #119
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I was 4 or 5. I was about as "casual" a reader as there can be. What DC doesn't need is for long-term readers to convert to "casual readers." They need to convert the "casual readers" into long-term readers.

Hey DC, you're doing it wrong.
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Old April 20th, 2013   Ben Ronning is offline   #120
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Here are my thoughts: I think it is past time to simply demolish the DC universe and start from scratch. Granted, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with the central themes and motifs of its characters but there is far too much baggage that weighs everything down. Every attempt to reboot or revitalize their characters only piled on more baggage to the point where I find almost every title in the New 52 almost unreadable because the reboot was sloppy and half-hearted at best.
 
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Old April 20th, 2013   flashsuper is offline   #121
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Here are my thoughts: I think it is past time to simply demolish the DC universe and start from scratch. Granted, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with the central themes and motifs of its characters but there is far too much baggage that weighs everything down. Every attempt to reboot or revitalize their characters only piled on more baggage to the point where I find almost every title in the New 52 almost unreadable because the reboot was sloppy and half-hearted at best.
ddf
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I cannot do another re-do, even from total scratch with no history at all. I can't and won't. I'm a DC loyalist (not apologist, mind you...they are different) and being loyal to DC I stuck with them, even though I am only getting three titles, but am reading seven of my nephews' books and am enjoying htem for the most part. But I cannot do it again. I WILL however agree to a "rewind" back to whatever point they go (pre-Flashpoint, pre-Final or Infinite Crisis, pre-Identity Crisis, pre-Zero Hour, pre-COIE), if they do it, but not back to the beginning. No. Can't. Won't. It would be, for me, the end for "loyal to the point of ridiculousness" flashsuper.

Oh, there is nothing wrong with all the baggage they just need to have the correct writer continue on with the story and not try to "fix things." Use the baggage as part of the mythos of the character and if a storyline comes up that can possibly improve the situation then by all means do it. Just don't retroactively fix it. That's poor writing.
 
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Old April 20th, 2013   mego joe is offline   #122
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I cannot do another re-do, even from total scratch with no history at all. I can't and won't. I'm a DC loyalist (not apologist, mind you...they are different) and being loyal to DC I stuck with them, even though I am only getting three titles, but am reading seven of my nephews' books and am enjoying htem for the most part. But I cannot do it again. I WILL however agree to a "rewind" back to whatever point they go (pre-Flashpoint, pre-Final or Infinite Crisis, pre-Identity Crisis, pre-Zero Hour, pre-COIE), if they do it, but not back to the beginning. No. Can't. Won't. It would be, for me, the end for "loyal to the point of ridiculousness" flashsuper.

Oh, there is nothing wrong with all the baggage they just need to have the correct writer continue on with the story and not try to "fix things." Use the baggage as part of the mythos of the character and if a storyline comes up that can possibly improve the situation then by all means do it. Just don't retroactively fix it. That's poor writing.
ddf
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You are right that the baggage goes with the characters but if they started from scratch I would be willing to try. I think it would have been better than the Nu 52 half-a**** restart.
 
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Old April 21st, 2013   imarriedsatanII is offline   #123
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I would only accept a rewind, not another reboot.

Like a few others have suggested, I wish they would try a "main universe" of titles that occur pre-Flashpoint. Offer the post-Flashpoint universe as a new line of "edgy" books where anything can happen. That way those of us that have invested years in these characters aren't quite so disgruntled, and people that want an Ultimate Batman can give that a whirl, also. That approach sure doesn't seem to be hurting Marvel's sales.

Just sayin...
 
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Old April 21st, 2013   flashsuper is offline   #124
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I would only accept a rewind, not another reboot.

Like a few others have suggested, I wish they would try a "main universe" of titles that occur pre-Flashpoint. Offer the post-Flashpoint universe as a new line of "edgy" books where anything can happen. That way those of us that have invested years in these characters aren't quite so disgruntled, and people that want an Ultimate Batman can give that a whirl, also. That approach sure doesn't seem to be hurting Marvel's sales.

Just sayin...
ddf
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Hey IMSII...concerning the rewind. Say they decided to rewind back to between Identity Crisis and Countdown to Infinite Crisis. Making that the fixed point in history and knowing how the universe panned out after that point, would you consider it a good idea to use those various plots/storylines that came afterwards as ideas for another story but without say things like, the deaths of Ted Kord or Conner Kent or Bart Allen and the Freedom Fighters? Ted could still have discovered Max Lord's secrets (does it have to be Lord's secrets...maybe someone else's) but instead of dying he could have been believed by just ONE hero that he had talked to and rescued before he had gotten killed? Then some other situation could have arisen that created the so-called "Infinite Crisis" and have had other things happen? Maybe Alexander Luthor did not exacerbate the situation, possibly someone else? I'm not sure who that would be mind you and I know it kind of sounds similar to the infamous "retoractive altering of a backstory to suit the current story's demands" but in effect you are "retroacively" changing the story itself since the actual fixed point of the DCU is now Pre Countdown to Infinite Crisis.

I am of the firm belief that you don't need a "death" of someone to begin or end a story. BUT if there is a death, then there has to be written down somewhere the who, what, where, when, why and how of that character coming back...just in case, and not go blindly into the story two years (for example) after the fact.

It's all just random thoughts from this former hardcore DC reader that has evolved into a casual reader, like someone stated before. And I know the examples make it sound like we have already read the story, but just use the ideas of those "future" stories as a guideline/blueprint, not the way it has to be.
 
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Old April 22nd, 2013   Call Me El is offline   #125
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It's all just random thoughts from this former hardcore DC reader that has evolved into a casual reader, like someone stated before. And I know the examples make it sound like we have already read the story, but just use the ideas of those "future" stories as a guideline/blueprint, not the way it has to be.
ddf
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In a sense, this is what's wrong with the whole New 52 concept. It's all teased on what we know from before. The big deal of the "first appearance" of every familiar character instead of actually creating new characters. The first meetings we have already seen many times. Building on the existing universe would have by necessity introduced more that was truly new.

Like a few others have suggested, I wish they would try a "main universe" of titles that occur pre-Flashpoint. Offer the post-Flashpoint universe as a new line of "edgy" books where anything can happen. That way those of us that have invested years in these characters aren't quite so disgruntled, and people that want an Ultimate Batman can give that a whirl, also. That approach sure doesn't seem to be hurting Marvel's sales.
ddf
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This is a good idea.
 
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Old November 22nd, 2013   Scott Mateo is offline   #126
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Haha, thought this was funny...

 
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Old November 22nd, 2013   hurri-fan is offline   #127
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There's some fine ideas in that facebook poll, I gotta say.
 
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Old November 23rd, 2013   Mr. Wrong is offline   #128
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I vote "Musical Numbers performed by dancing monkeys on the Source"!!!
 
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