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Old July 8th, 2010   Eric Q is offline   #33
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Nevermind
 
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Will replace free speech w/fee speech. You can still give your 2 cents but you have to pay us $2 each time. U$A, U$A, U$A!
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Old July 8th, 2010   MattDiCarlo is offline   #34
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Greg Weisman told me that, yes, Gaiman was pissed. Though part of that may have been Greg's interpretation of the character.

I suspect that Gaiman will be annoyed again. Unless someone from DC talked with him first. Given that he seems to be on decent terms with DC of late, it would be really dumb if they didn't. Maybe there is some sort "Doctor Who script writer" meet-up where Cornell talked to GNeil?
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Cornell is pretty ideal for this. I can think of few people I'd trust more. Cornell is one of the biggest "fans" writing comics today. If anything, it'll be too spot on and close to the source material and won't take enough chances.

I don't think we have to worry about that, though. It sounds like he came up with the idea and that editorial didn't shove it upon him. That makes a huge difference in 2010 DC.
 
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Old July 8th, 2010   Mark MacMillan is offline   #35
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That actually has as much to do with the Vertigo wall as anything. Gaiman WAS pissed about it in a big way. there is NO way that comic is in canon anymore. No way.
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Actually, it was 2 back to back issues of Captain Atom (#47-48 IIRC) and it wasn't the only place they were used (we're talking about the mid 80's to 90's after CoIE here, a long way away from Vertigo's creation)
 
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Old July 8th, 2010   MattDiCarlo is offline   #36
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I'll try to find a gaiman interview on it later.
 
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Old July 8th, 2010   zekeman1 is offline   #37
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i was hoping for a french maid.
 
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Old July 8th, 2010   michealdark is offline   #38
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Yup, it's Death. I'm interested to see how this plays out. I would love it to be Superman and her talking about Blackest Night (mainly where she was and what could negate her powers to prevent her from intervening), but it'll probably be Lex talking to her. Which, given the lives he's destroyed, could make for an interesting convo.
 
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Old July 8th, 2010   Patrick Gerard is offline   #39
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Read the link I posted. I've learned not to think of it that way because it's not a history book, not everything will fit perfectly. As long as it doesn't make big mistakes and that it's good, that all that really matters.

Definitely going to check this issue out, it should be very interesting.
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If I were Paul Cornell, I might play with the idea that the reason nobody stays dead is because Death doesn't generally do super-heroes or super-villains. She lets some appropriately mythic or surreal god or devil or man on skis take care of the super-heroes and villains. What they are and what they do is anathema to what she does. Heroes and villains are supposed to go on forever, a tradition that goes back to the Greeks and the Vikings, at least, and so she lets the not-quite-death gods handle them. And those not-quite-death gods may wax and wane about how seriously they take resurrections but even when you're dead in the custody of one of them, your soul is somewhere vibrant and interesting and your story isn't over.

But she's Death. And if she takes you, there is no white lantern ring on the other side or cloned body you can escape to. No toasts in Valhalla. It's real. Make your peace, you're gone forever. May be Heaven or may be Hell but there's no evidence for anything for a man like Luthor, who doesn't believe in a real god and just sees angels and demons as melodramatic aliens who inspired a few lines of poetry.

From there, you could get into the question of what Luthor's done to warrant this. Real death. No deals with the devil. No zombie resurrection. No story or narrative. Just the end. And with the knowledge that he's the one person in a world of heroes and villains who an exception has made for, who doesn't deserve anything special, that (if anything) he's been deemed...

...

ordinary.

The Joker isn't ordinary. Mongul and the Cyborg and Eclipso and Prometheus aren't ordinary. They all get deaths with loopholes promised to them because Death leaves them to the stranger not-quite-deaths. But Luthor is an ordinary man who now faces ordinary, unremarkable, real and final death.

THAT's where I'd take this.
 
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Old July 8th, 2010   michealdark is offline   #40
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I think in the DC (as with Marvel), all afterlives exist. Death just takes you where you need to go. Sometimes it's permanent, sometimes you end up in one of those reincarnation afterlives like in Hinduism or Wicca.
 
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Old July 8th, 2010   ADGood is offline   #41
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Which is what worries me.

She's one of these characters who works better in their own continuity. You put her in a place with all these crazy crisis', different gods of death and rebirths; it sort of acts like a misshapen puzzle piece.
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This is what I'm saying. It's not so much a matter of whether you can make the story work - of course you can; you can make almost any story work if you try hard enough. It's more a question of whether you really want to. The Endless virtually - hell, maybe literally - epitomize the whole, "comics as serious literature," or, "comics aren't just for kids," mentality that really got a heavy push post Silver-Age. Geoff's books - spearheaded by Blackest Night, the Superman titles, and the GL books - epitomize an earnest push towards the re-Silver-Ageization of superhero comics, in all their rainbow-zombie, life-began-with-a-giant-glowy-white-dude-on-Earth, zap-pow-kapwing glory. Each style takes different tacks in the pursuit of wonder. The former approach goes for complexity, metaphor, profundity and all that subtext-y jazz. The latter goes for dazzlement, escapism, episodic melodrama and sheer thrill. I actually think that there is a validity to both approaches, and certainly room for both kinds of comics. But I'm not quite as convinced that attempting to smash them into one another is a terrific idea, and I certainly don't think it's something to be attempted lightly. It's not that I think it can't be done. It can. It's just that I don't see why Geoff would want to do it in the franchises he has the run of, given his heretofore successful efforts to separate the two approaches. I guess...it's surprising, more than anything else.
 
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Old July 8th, 2010   michealdark is offline   #42
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But Geoff isn't writing this story, Cornell is. And Death can work perfectly fine in stories where DC characters are heavily featured. She was in Madam Xanadu after all.
 
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Old July 9th, 2010   ADGood is offline   #43
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But Geoff isn't writing this story, Cornell is. And Death can work perfectly fine in stories where DC characters are heavily featured. She was in Madam Xanadu after all.
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Yeah, I know - Cornell is one of those guys that I think could conceivably make a story that works. My point was that he's doing this in Geoff's sandbox - a sandbox that has, to date, been meticulously swept free of Vertigo content grime and thematic dust. DC superheroes in general, and this handful of franchises in particular, are Geoff's World. Think of it like Elmo's World, but with rainbow goo-zombies. What was puzzling me was more the notion that he's spent years building up this particular corner of DC, scrubbing and polishing, and sweeping it clean of every trace of continuities that don't fit (or that he doesn't particularly like), down to the last speck of oily Vertigo grit. And he seems really, really happy to have a sandbox full of nothing but sparkly super-sand. Who wouldn't be? It took so much time and effort, so much wheeling and dealing, and Oh so much retconning, but now he's got it. And he earned it.

Then he calls over to his mate Paul, and asks if he wants to play in the sandbox and dump a few handfuls of that grit back into the box.

It's sweet, no question. I mean, just look at 'em playing together. Aren't they adorable? I'm just saying that I'm a little bit baffled by the effort that they put into scouring the sandbox until it was absolutely pristine, only to immediately invite in the kid with the muddy shoes.
 
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Old July 9th, 2010   Patrick Gerard is offline   #44
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Yeah, I know - Cornell is one of those guys that I think could conceivably make a story that works. My point was that he's doing this in Geoff's sandbox - a sandbox that has, to date, been meticulously swept free of Vertigo content grime and thematic dust. DC superheroes in general, and this handful of franchises in particular, are Geoff's World. Think of it like Elmo's World, but with rainbow goo-zombies. What was puzzling me was more the notion that he's spent years building up this particular corner of DC, scrubbing and polishing, and sweeping it clean of every trace of continuities that don't fit (or that he doesn't particularly like), down to the last speck of oily Vertigo grit. And he seems really, really happy to have a sandbox full of nothing but sparkly super-sand. Who wouldn't be? It took so much time and effort, so much wheeling and dealing, and Oh so much retconning, but now he's got it. And he earned it.

Then he calls over to his mate Paul, and asks if he wants to play in the sandbox and dump a few handfuls of that grit back into the box.

It's sweet, no question. I mean, just look at 'em playing together. Aren't they adorable? I'm just saying that I'm a little bit baffled by the effort that they put into scouring the sandbox until it was absolutely pristine, only to immediately invite in the kid with the muddy shoes.
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Funny. I'd say Geoff's writing reads quite a bit like the early Vertigo stuff and I have no idea what you're going on about with this idea of scrubbing and oil.

DC's super-heroes are much darker and murkier than Vertigo's ever were.
 
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Old July 9th, 2010   ADGood is offline   #45
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Funny. I'd say Geoff's writing reads quite a bit like the early Vertigo stuff and I have no idea what you're going on about with this idea of scrubbing and oil.
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Mm. It's a metaphor. Like the ones they use over at Vertigo. Now that I look at it, it's sort of misleading. It reads like a blanket metaphor for cleaning, which has certain connotations of its own that I wasn't really going for. It should read more as a metaphor for reorganization and philosophical separation. The sandbox imagery was actually only supposed to stand for the current sphere of Geoff's direct control.
DC's super-heroes are much darker and murkier than Vertigo's ever were.
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...Okay, I got nothing here.
 
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Old July 9th, 2010   virtuadept is offline   #46
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I see that this is coming out in HC next spring, I may snag it then.
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Old July 9th, 2010   JRM is offline   #47
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Not that I'm aware of. Sandman wasn't a completely separate thing back then (Hector and Lyta were Daniel's parents after all) so I don't see why he would be.
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IIRC, he had some problems with the use of her in Capt Atom story - it didn't fit how he invisioned her and I believe the word came down that she could only be used with his okay. Two odd fall outs - 1. it is effectively the starting point of the "vertigo" wall and 2. it was the same sort of arangement that Robinson has enjoyed in regards to Jack Knight and Opal in general.

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Old July 9th, 2010   heffison is offline   #48
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Then he calls over to his mate Paul, and asks if he wants to play in the sandbox and dump a few handfuls of that grit back into the box.

It's sweet, no question. I mean, just look at 'em playing together. Aren't they adorable? I'm just saying that I'm a little bit baffled by the effort that they put into scouring the sandbox until it was absolutely pristine, only to immediately invite in the kid with the muddy shoes.
ddf
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Maybe once the sandbox was clean, he felt more comfortable saying, "Okay, a little mud might make a nice accent here...and here...no, not there, but over a little by the Arrow clan...." Mud is okay, as long as he has control over how much, and where it goes.

This could bode well for Swamp Thing, couldn't it?
 

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