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Old October 10th, 2007   booyah is offline   #1
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Default Batman Confidential #10 Spoilers and Discussion.

"There's a bunny in the moon...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....That' s just crazy."

Wow. This issue was just wonderful.
This is it, Lovers & Madmen part 4, where everything gets turned on it's head and things that were already bad for Batman, get alot worse.

After finding "Jack" unconscious on a medical table awaiting surgery, Malestra and his gang, acting on Batman's tip, abduct him and are charged with the task of taking him out once and for all.
Unfortunately, instead of taking Batman's advice and ending him quickly, Malestra decides Jack's fate lies at "The Pharm", and abandoned pharmaceutical facility outside Gotham. There they pound, and beat, and mangle Jack to the the point where any normal man would break down whimpering like a dog.
Instead Malestra finds Jack completely unresponsive except for occasionally trying to give Malestra advice on how to do it right.

This is just an exceptional piece of storytelling on the part of Michael Green. I know this will be hotly debated, but I honestly find this to be the best of Joker's NUMEROUS origin stories.
The way he details the parallels between Joker and batman, the way he digs deeply into the way they both think, and ultimately, as displayed in this issue, the one MAIN difference between the two, as Batman makes the decision that his soul will NOT be the first victim of Jack's poisonous influence, are all laid out in masterful strokes by Green's words.

Unfortunately Batman arrives at that decision moments too late, as the chemical spill crashes like a psychotic tidal wave that will forever alter the lives of both Jack and Batman.

This story grabs you and takes you down a bumpy dangerous road that we have all been down before, but even though we know where it's going both Green's words, and Denys Cowan's distorted, yet visually gripping art, manage to keep you on the edge of your seat with what the next curve will bring.

Two VERY big thumbs up from me.

Thoughts?
 
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Old October 10th, 2007   rpi is offline   #2
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I don't think this is going to last in continuity land much longer than Morrison's Joker issue few a few months back. The story abandoned the Red Hood idea, thereby contradicting the Joker origin story told in Countdown less than a month ago. Of course, that would make Jason Todd's history with the Red Hood concept meaningless as well. Apart from filling out issue requirements, I'm not sure why DC is wasting storytelling space with these stories that are pretty much rendered null and void by the time they're published. I'm still loving Cowyn's art but other than that, this story is pretty forgettable and I'm totally ok with that.
Now Can1, please lecture me about how continuity doesn't matter.
 
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Old October 10th, 2007   booyah is offline   #3
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I don't think this is going to last in continuity land much longer than Morrison's Joker issue few a few months back. The story abandoned the Red Hood idea, thereby contradicting the Joker origin story told in Countdown less than a month ago. Of course, that would make Jason Todd's history with the Red Hood concept meaningless as well. Apart from filling out issue requirements, I'm not sure why DC is wasting storytelling space with these stories that are pretty much rendered null and void by the time they're published. I'm still loving Cowyn's art but other than that, this story is pretty forgettable and I'm totally ok with that.
Now Can1, please lecture me about how continuity doesn't matter.
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No, you are right. Continuity does matter.
But, by also siting the same issue of Countdown you did, I think Joker's origin is just open to multiple interpretations. The Countdown issue confirmed that, I stated that in my original post, so on and so forth.
By stating anything that has to do with the Joker as "definitive" IMO, is just a straight up disservice to the character. There is no right or wrong interpretation to The Joker.
I happen to LOVE this interpretation of the character, you do not. And that's what's so damn cool about the randomness of the character, if one month ya don't like the way he is being used, give it a little bit of time and BAM, there will be a new interpretation of him you may love.
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   rpi is offline   #4
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See, but the Countdown issue said that the events leading up to the Red Hood's robbery were uncertain. It said that Red Hood fell into chemicals after a botched robbery. That much has always been established. This is the only version of the Joker's origin that doesn't have anything to do with that. Mind you, I also really dislike the idea of the Joker having a prior history. It dilutes the chaos that the character is, I think. I also think that the idea that Batman would give up his vow never to kill by handing the pre-Joker over to the thugs who were obviously planning on killing him, thereby making his grief over a woman he'd known a couple weeks more important than the reason he became Batman, felt pretty hollow as well.
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   booyah is offline   #5
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Understandable.
Again, that falls under your personal preferences.
I see this Batman as still learning, still training, and developing. He made a lapse in judgment, that's all, and he did everything he could to rectify it before it was too late.
In other versions of the character Batman has broken his vow by giving up the mantle, allowing criminals to die, etc. So this lapse in believing that the world would be a better place without "jack" in it, seemed reasonably in character IMO.
As far as the backstory and prior history of Joker goes, I agree to an extent. There is no reason to know everything, but I think this interpretation has been just vague enough to not hinder the "randomness" and "chaos" of the character that both you and I seem to enjoy so much.

Again, that's just me though.

And as far as the "Red Hood" thing goes, if you pay attention to last issue, you will see that he did, in fact, wear a Red mask when attacking the charity ball, which, as I saw it, was a subtle nod to that aspect of the Joker's origin.
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   philioteria21 is offline   #6
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See, but the Countdown issue said that the events leading up to the Red Hood's robbery were uncertain. It said that Red Hood fell into chemicals after a botched robbery. That much has always been established. This is the only version of the Joker's origin that doesn't have anything to do with that. Mind you, I also really dislike the idea of the Joker having a prior history. It dilutes the chaos that the character is, I think. I also think that the idea that Batman would give up his vow never to kill by handing the pre-Joker over to the thugs who were obviously planning on killing him, thereby making his grief over a woman he'd known a couple weeks more important than the reason he became Batman, felt pretty hollow as well.
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You're mistaken, actually. It doesn't say that he was absolutely, 100% for sure wearing a red hood...that was just one of the possible origins.

The actual text is:

Okay, so there's this comic who can't make an audience laugh...I think that's how this one goes, I forget sometimes...

Oh, you've heard that one? All right. Ah, I can't keep 'em straight. How about the one where a mob killer named Napier comes to Gotham and--

No, wait. You're too young for that one.

I know. This one always works. So a small-time yutz in a Red Hood walks into a factory, right? He's there to steal the payroll.
ddf
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That's part of the Killing Joke origin with him just being a failed comedian (minus the Red Hood aspect), the Tim Burton movie origin (where he absolutely wasn't wearing a Red Hood), and then the failed criminal/Red Hood origin.

All in all, there isn't anything definitive about the Red Hood origin to say, one way or another, that he was definitely wearing one when he fell into the vat. However, I'm sure he's told that origin to enough people for Jason Todd to have heard it and assumed that it's how the Joker actually became the Joker.

As to the issue itself, I loved it. I enjoy this storyarc more and more with each issue, and I'm really looking forward to Michael Green's arc on Superman/Batman.
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   Lukecash is offline   #7
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Understandable.
Again, that falls under your personal preferences.
I see this Batman as still learning, still training, and developing. He made a lapse in judgment, that's all, and he did everything he could to rectify it before it was too late.
In other versions of the character Batman has broken his vow by giving up the mantle, allowing criminals to die, etc. So this lapse in believing that the world would be a better place without "jack" in it, seemed reasonably in character IMO.
As far as the backstory and prior history of Joker goes, I agree to an extent. There is no reason to know everything, but I think this interpretation has been just vague enough to not hinder the "randomness" and "chaos" of the character that both you and I seem to enjoy so much.

Again, that's just me though.

And as far as the "Red Hood" thing goes, if you pay attention to last issue, you will see that he did, in fact, wear a Red mask when attacking the charity ball, which, as I saw it, was a subtle nod to that aspect of the Joker's origin.
ddf
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First of all, I want to say that I was a fan of this story. It was a fascinating way of looking at how the Joker came to be and what perhaps drives him.

Notice I say was.

There are four things that suddenly derailed this story.

1) Yes, there was NO Red Hood. This is the most vital part of the Joker's origin. A red mask does not make a Red hood. I do not accept a "tip o' the hat" substitute. Sure, I can accept multiple interpretations on how he got in t he Red Hood, but the Red Hood was the thing that made the Joker a mystery to the Batman. As Mark Waid so eloquently pointed out in the Countdown: "This one always works..." The reason being, in comic book lore it comes back to this event.

2) Batman, no way in HELL would ever turn over someone to the mafia. What? Jim Gordon too busy? Batman had a hunch where this guy may end up, would you think a control freak like that? Way out of character. If he couldn't trust Gotham PD, FBI or the US Marshal might have helped.

3) This course of action makes Batman responsible for the creation of his greatest enemy. In all other renditions, the worse thing that could be said that it was accidental. In the original story: The Red Hood intentionally jumped into the vat of chemical's (Part of the reason why he wore it was to be able to navigate dangerous areas that the cops wouldn't follow.) In the Burton movie, Jacks own shot sent him tumbling over the edge...and Batman tried to save him, but was unsuccessful. In the Killing Joke, the cops killing his henchmen and Jacks old fears sent him tumbling over the edge. This leads me to the last one.

4) Batman didn't know where the Joker came from, until many years later. The Red Hood has been vital in keeping the Jokers mystery alive. In this tale, not only does he know he is responsible for maiming and disfigurement of this man-he's responsible for EVERY sing death that happens after wards. The Joker has just cause to hate Batman: he was going to have Mafia goons kill him. Batman directly lead to him being disfigured.

*sigh* It was going all so well until that point....
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   rpi is offline   #8
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All in all, there isn't anything definitive about the Red Hood origin to say, one way or another, that he was definitely wearing one when he fell into the vat. However, I'm sure he's told that origin to enough people for Jason Todd to have heard it and assumed that it's how the Joker actually became the Joker.

As to the issue itself, I loved it. I enjoy this storyarc more and more with each issue, and I'm really looking forward to Michael Green's arc on Superman/Batman.
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Except that it has always been shown that Batman was there and saw him with the Red Hood on. Unless Batman's memories of the Joker's origin are multiple choice as well, I don't see how this can be viewed as something other than a contradiction.
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   philioteria21 is offline   #9
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Except that it has always been shown that Batman was there and saw him with the Red Hood on. Unless Batman's memories of the Joker's origin are multiple choice as well, I don't see how this can be viewed as something other than a contradiction.
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I don't know, when was the last time we saw the Joker's origin from Batman's point of view? Other than this story, where there is clearly no Hood involved. Plus, Batman didn't even see the Joker fall into the chemicals in this issue, did he?
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   Lukecash is offline   #10
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Yes, Batman was there and stood by there helplessly while the chemicals were being dumped on Jack.
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   philioteria21 is offline   #11
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Did he actually see him fall in? Meaning, would Batman even know if he was wearing a Red Hood prior to falling?
 
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Old October 11th, 2007   rpi is offline   #12
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Did he actually see him fall in? Meaning, would Batman even know if he was wearing a Red Hood prior to falling?
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Again, it was chemicals falling on him, not him falling into chemicals. He saw Batman through the chemical bath and Batman saw him. Plus, he had just handed him over to a group of thugs who he knew were likely to kill pre-Joker. What, did he think they'd put a red metal helmet on their victim before they killed him?
 
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Old October 12th, 2007   Bee Allen is offline   #13
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"There's a bunny in the moon...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....That' s just crazy."
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http://www.adlerplanetarium.org/cybe...re.html#rabbit
 
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Old October 12th, 2007   rpi is offline   #14
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A Homer in the moon last week on Simpons, now this? What's next?
 
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Old October 12th, 2007   booyah is offline   #15
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Well...that's awesome.
But I was just quoting the line from the book
 
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Old October 13th, 2007   Lukecash is offline   #16
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That was FREAKING awesome find.

Well, that made the story a little better...but the things I mentioned preivously still mar the story for me.
 
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