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Old May 22nd, 2006   BART ALLEN is offline   #1
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BART ALLEN
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Default Adam West vs Frank Miller

For yeares, I've heard that Adam West destroyed Batman with the tv show, and how horrible it was. but i would like to go on record as saying that Frank Miller has done just as much damage to batman but in the other dirrect.

What those that would bad mouth West fail to relise is that Batman the comic was near cancellation befor West and BAT-mania hit, and that West saved Batman

batman was in no danger when Miller went the other direction. And atleast during the pain piper of Gotham episode when Batman batgirl and Robin led the rats out of town Batman dick not say "getting Hungry ol chum" and then attack Alfred for not letting Robin eat a Rat. Even Adam West got Batman better then Miller.

YOu know after watching batman how meny of us put a towel on a back and pretended to be Robin, how meny of us thought it wouldbe cool to be Robin, After reading ASBAR , i doubt any kid would pretend to be Robin much less want to be him.

Miller has damaged Batman, not by making him campy but by making him into a non-hero

If Batman and Robin all stars #4 was the first time you read batman would you think of him as a hero. or as a guy who tries to make kids eat rats and attacks his help.

Next time Miller insults Adam West, I hope BATMAN pulls out his Bat anto over inflated ego writer repellant and gets rid of him.

Just the other day on stage i heard Natalie Maines of the Dixie chicks Look at an audience and said, "yeah we're Ashamed of Frank Miller Too"

I heard that during debate SOmeone turned to the allstar batman and said 'I knew batman, i worked with batman, you are no Batman"
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   CapeandCowl is offline   #2
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For yeares, I've heard that Adam West destroyed Batman with the tv show, and how horrible it was. but i would like to go on record as saying that Frank Miller has done just as much damage to batman but in the other dirrect.

What those that would bad mouth West fail to relise is that Batman the comic was near cancellation befor West and BAT-mania hit, and that West saved Batman

batman was in no danger when Miller went the other direction. And atleast during the pain piper of Gotham episode when Batman batgirl and Robin led the rats out of town Batman dick not say "getting Hungry ol chum" and then attack Alfred for not letting Robin eat a Rat. Even Adam West got Batman better then Miller.

YOu know after watching batman how meny of us put a towel on a back and pretended to be Robin, how meny of us thought it wouldbe cool to be Robin, After reading ASBAR , i doubt any kid would pretend to be Robin much less want to be him.

Miller has damaged Batman, not by making him campy but by making him into a non-hero

If Batman and Robin all stars #4 was the first time you read batman would you think of him as a hero. or as a guy who tries to make kids eat rats and attacks his help.

Next time Miller insults Adam West, I hope BATMAN pulls out his Bat anto over inflated ego writer repellant and gets rid of him.

Just the other day on stage i heard Natalie Maines of the Dixie chicks Look at an audience and said, "yeah we're Ashamed of Frank Miller Too"

I heard that during debate SOmeone turned to the allstar batman and said 'I knew batman, i worked with batman, you are no Batman"
ddf
BART ALLEN

At first I wasn't going to reply to this, but I am a glutton for punishment, so here it goes...

First off, I think you might just be taking All Star Batman and Robin just a tad too personally. And, uh, if someone insults Adam West, you know there is no actual batman to come and punch them out...

Anyway, first point - Adam West and that whole TV show DID NOT, I repeat, DID NOT, "damage" Batman for pete's sake. It is vastly different take than we have post-Scwartz, O'Neil and Miller - it is did not "ruin" anything.

It was a show for its day. Whats more, at the time, the comics were pretty campy and goofy as well. Sillyness was the Batman of the time. While it was probably the farthest thing from a serious look at the character, the show worked. It was hugely popular, spawned first "bat-mania" with toys and lunch boxes and costumes and the like. And to this day, Adam West in that goofy-as-hell costume is still the most vivid image people have of what Batman is.

Second point - Frank Miller has not, I repeat HAS NOT, "damaged" Batman. I mean, really. Although Batman became progessively darker in the 1970s and into 80s, leaving behind the silver agey camp it was Miller's Dark Knight Returns that would competely redefine the character. Whatever camp that O'Neil et al had not done away with, Miller did and recast batman as something rather different that a joe in tights. It was also, along with Watchmen and Maus, one of graphic novels that not only lifted the entire comics industry, but made the mainstream public take note of comics. DKR, along with Year One, had a massive impact on Batman and while there have been some poorly done imitations of Miller's take on the character, and isn't his fault.

Both the Adam West and Frank Miller takes on Batman have been good for the character, and defined what Batman was for a whole generation of fans.

You seem to think there is some kind of "definative" verison of Batman.Well, forgive me for saying so, but there isn't. When Batman was first created by Kane and Finger, he was a ruthless and murderous vigiliant. In his first apperance, he dumps a guy into a vat of acid and kills him. He amassed a pretty good body count afterwards, including during the short period in which he carried A GUN!

Later, he became less bloody, less dark, and eventually pretty campy. He moved away from camp into something much darker and mysterious, eventually written with a more obessive personality. There are nearly as many verison of Batman as there are writers. Whatever verison you prefer is your choice. But it is not the ONLY verison out there. And NONE of them have done "damage to Batman" Yeesh.

Here is what Frank MIller said when asked why he was doing Batman again over at Newsrama, and it speaks directly to this point:

I like him. There are certain characters that just talk to you. I regard Batman as unusual in that I really don’t believe in any single interpretation of him as being carved in stone. I see Batman as a piece of folklore – a huge jewel that you can throw against any wall, and it won’t break, but will show you another way of looking at him. There are at the very least, a dozen different ways to do Batman, and they all work. Everything from Neal Adams/Denny O’Neil to Adam West to Dark Knight – the character is so resilient that he can be interpreted any which way…and work. I, for instance, love Dick Sprang and Jerry Robinson’s depiction, and base a lot of the ways I draw the character on their view of him.
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Old May 22nd, 2006   Danny B is offline   #3
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I like him. There are certain characters that just talk to you. I regard Batman as unusual in that I really don’t believe in any single interpretation of him as being carved in stone. I see Batman as a piece of folklore – a huge jewel that you can throw against any wall, and it won’t break, but will show you another way of looking at him. There are at the very least, a dozen different ways to do Batman, and they all work. Everything from Neal Adams/Denny O’Neil to Adam West to Dark Knight – the character is so resilient that he can be interpreted any which way…and work. I, for instance, love Dick Sprang and Jerry Robinson’s depiction, and base a lot of the ways I draw the character on their view of him.
ddf
Love that Frank Miller quote. I'm not a big fan of most of his work but I do agree with a lot of his views on superheroes. For instance, he sees Wonder Woman as a better mate for Superman than Lois. I agree with that.

I also loved a quote he made about Batman on the BATMAN special edition DVD. It was something like, "Batman is the kind of guy you want watching your back in a dark alley. Doesn't mean you want to have dinner with him." I thought that was brilliant.

Nope, Miller's not harming Batman. Neither did West. If anything, they helped launch--or in Miller's case, re-launch--Batman into public awareness.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   BART ALLEN is offline   #4
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I will say Frank Miller has harmed Batman by telling a bad story. Some kid out there is going to pick up this as thier first Batman book and think this is how batman is sapose to be, someone who tries to make a kids eat a rat and then attack Alfred. and yes i think that Harms the Batman legend.
Batman is bigger then Frank Miller, (maybe not Frank Millers ego, blown up the way his fans have made it) ANd thier are certian things that make batman , batman, And I think Miller violated some of those in his work , the abuse on Robin, the attack on Alfred. ect.
Frank Miller is on the level of Rob Liefield in my book, overhyped and under talented who all so "made mainstream take notice " of comics.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   Danny B is offline   #5
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I will say Frank Miller has harmed Batman by telling a bad story. Some kid out there is going to pick up this as thier first Batman book and think this is how batman is sapose to be, someone who tries to make a kids eat a rat and then attack Alfred. and yes i think that Harms the Batman legend...
ddf
BART ALLEN
I'm not so sure kids should be reading All Star Batman. That's what Johnny DC is for with books like THE BATMAN STRIKES and JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED. Besides, when I used to manage a comic book store we rarely had kids come in to read comics. The mostly bought Pokemon cards and Dragonball Z shtuff.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   CapeandCowl is offline   #6
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I will say Frank Miller has harmed Batman by telling a bad story. Some kid out there is going to pick up this as thier first Batman book and think this is how batman is sapose to be, someone who tries to make a kids eat a rat and then attack Alfred. and yes i think that Harms the Batman legend.
Batman is bigger then Frank Miller, (maybe not Frank Millers ego, blown up the way his fans have made it) ANd thier are certian things that make batman , batman, And I think Miller violated some of those in his work , the abuse on Robin, the attack on Alfred. ect.
Frank Miller is on the level of Rob Liefield in my book, overhyped and under talented who all so "made mainstream take notice " of comics.
ddf
BART ALLEN

Well if you are going to claim that Miller has "damaged" Batman because he is telling what you consider to be a "bad story" then you had better list every other writer who wrote a bad story....and there are piles of them given that the character has been around for 50 plus years.

What you forget here is that for many a reader, Miller's Batman is the prefered take on the character. You are free not to like it, but to say that he is ruining Batman is not particularly defensiable.

Also, why the personal shots at a guy I am fairly sure you don't know and so cannot take a character judgement on him? I don't know why comics fans do this, but there are way too many fans in my view, attacking creators because they produce a book they don't like.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   CapeandCowl is offline   #7
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I'm not so sure kids should be reading All Star Batman. That's what Johnny DC is for with books like THE BATMAN STRIKES and JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED. Besides, when I used to manage a comic book store we rarely had kids come in to read comics. The mostly bought Pokemon cards and Dragonball Z shtuff.
ddf
Danny B

Yeah...and never mind that most comics readers are men in the 30s and 40s these days.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   BART ALLEN is offline   #8
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we do have kids coming in, you know the next generation of comic fan, and the little ones need to run around in the back yard with capes around thier necks fighting the pretend Jokers of the world. they need to know that Batman is the greatest HERO and the greatest comic book character ever, they need to understand the heroic ideal that is batman, and if they read a Frank Miller Batman story they will not understand the heroic ideal
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   jasonleo is offline   #9
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I will say Frank Miller has harmed Batman by telling a bad story. Some kid out there is going to pick up this as thier first Batman book and think this is how batman is sapose to be, someone who tries to make a kids eat a rat and then attack Alfred. and yes i think that Harms the Batman legend.
Batman is bigger then Frank Miller, (maybe not Frank Millers ego, blown up the way his fans have made it) ANd thier are certian things that make batman , batman, And I think Miller violated some of those in his work , the abuse on Robin, the attack on Alfred. ect.
Frank Miller is on the level of Rob Liefield in my book, overhyped and under talented who all so "made mainstream take notice " of comics.
ddf
BART ALLEN
Would some one PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   Danny B is offline   #10
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we do have kids coming in, you know the next generation of comic fan, and the little ones need to run around in the back yard with capes around thier necks fighting the pretend Jokers of the world. they need to know that Batman is the greatest HERO and the greatest comic book character ever, they need to understand the heroic ideal that is batman, and if they read a Frank Miller Batman story they will not understand the heroic ideal
ddf
BART ALLEN
Bart, that's why you should steer them over to your all-ages section and throw a copy of THE BATMAN STRIKES into their hands. Kids will buy that over ALL STAR BATMAN because it's the version they recognize from the TV show. When I was a kid I bought the SUPER POWERS comic because it was like the TV show I watched. I didn't transition into the mainstream DC and Marvel comics until I hit my early teens. That's the purpose of "Johnny DC". It serves as a gateway for kids to work their way up to the mainstream--then eventually--more mature books like WATCHMAN and KILLING JOKE.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   CapeandCowl is offline   #11
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we do have kids coming in, you know the next generation of comic fan, and the little ones need to run around in the back yard with capes around thier necks fighting the pretend Jokers of the world. they need to know that Batman is the greatest HERO and the greatest comic book character ever, they need to understand the heroic ideal that is batman, and if they read a Frank Miller Batman story they will not understand the heroic ideal
ddf
BART ALLEN

you realize you are judging this entire series on the basis of only four chapaters? I mean, if you based Moby Dick on only the first four chapters, you would be convinced that Ishmael was nothing but a manic depressive moron. Or if you judged Hamlet by the first act, you'd think Hamlet was just a complaining little dufus.

AND, never mind, that what is "heroic" is a pretty nebulous ideal. Achillies is one of the greatest heroes in fiction, but conducts himself in a way I doubt you would consider very heroic. Odysseus - with whom Miller's Batman has more than a few things in common - is also a great hero. Would you call him that?

What about Indianna Jones? He kills his enemies routinely? He is a hero? Is Hamlet a hero? Is Muhammad Ali is hero?

You see the problem with what you are saying. If the heroic ideal is merely a goofy guy in a cape stopping an equally goofy villian, that is a pretty narrow defination of hero.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   CapeandCowl is offline   #12
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Would some one PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ddf
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ROTFLMAO
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   CapeandCowl is offline   #13
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Bart, that's why you should steer them over to your all-ages section and throw a copy of THE BATMAN STRIKES into their hands. Kids will buy that over ALL STAR BATMAN because it's the version they recognize from the TV show. When I was a kid I bought the SUPER POWERS comic because it was like the TV show I watched. I didn't transition into the mainstream DC and Marvel comics until I hit my early teens. That's the purpose of "Johnny DC". It serves as a gateway for kids to work their way up to the mainstream--then eventually--more mature books like WATCHMAN and KILLING JOKE.
ddf
Danny B

yeah exactly. I wouldn't put the Killing Joke in the hands of a 10 year old. Kid's gotta sleep nights. There are plenty of comics for kids out there.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   Danny B is offline   #14
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I don't want us all to gang up on Bart. He's passionate about Batman and I respect that.

I understand your views and empathize with you, Bart. Please keep this in mind, no matter what happens Miller will not be able to damage Batman. The character is bigger--and more durable--than any writer or editor alive or dead. Hopefully that thought will give you some solace.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   jasonleo is offline   #15
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What exactly is wrong with eating a rat anyway? They eat them on Survivor and I am sure some kids saw that.
 
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Old May 22nd, 2006   Danny B is offline   #16
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yeah exactly. I wouldn't put the Killing Joke in the hands of a 10 year old. Kid's gotta sleep nights. There are plenty of comics for kids out there.
ddf
CapeandCowl
LOL...Yeah. In KILLING JOKE, Joker isn't the cute teddy bear that he is on B:TAS.
 
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