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Old June 17th, 2010   Stephen Henel is offline   #1
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Default West: why Rebirth left him without a direction.

This thread is about the 3 biggest problems that Geoff created for Wally West as a character in Rebirth. I have no intention of turning this into a Wally vs. Barry thing, and I hope people going into this thread will keep it focused on Wally and not derail it. When I do mention Barry, I will only mention the ways that he has made Wally obsolete. It is necessary to mention what unique things Wally can bring to the table whenever discussing his future, but I will keep any mention of Barry to the point. And remember, just because I say that these decisions were terrible for Wally West does not mean I am saying that they were terrible decisions. I am also not complaining that Wally West no longer has a series...these character traits affect him no matter what book he's in or how many pages he's on. If you want to argue the points, you're better off arguing why they did not damage Wally or why they were good for Wally. Keep that in mind before posting, and I think everything can be civil.

Rather than giving Wally a new raison d'etre in Rebirth, Geoff took away Wally's three biggest motivations and functions as the Flash and put very little back in the tank. Lets talk about these issues, what they mean for the future of Wally West, and what can possibly be done to fix them.

Problem #1: The Speed Force.

Throughout his run, Wally's biggest accomplishment was discovering the Speed Force. No more. Gone. You re-read Terminal Velocity today and it no longer has the same pop because of the retcons. Subsequent to discovering the Speedforce, Wally was also mentioned as being the only one who could mainline the Speed Force. No more. Gone. Not only was Barry revealed to be mainlining the Speed Force, but he was revealed as the only person who could mainline it. No reason was given for what happened to Wally's ability to mainline it, it was just ignored. The Speed Force was probably Wally's best chance at doing something unique as a Flash instead of THE Flash, but so far, the only unique skill he's been attributed is the ability to knit superspeed costumes. According to the Secret Files issue, that's his grand place in the Flash pantheon. Seamstress.

Problem #2: Legacy

Wally's greatest historical significance is being one of the first sidekicks to successfully take up the mantle of his predecessor. Even with Barry coming back, you'd think that nothing could ever be written to mitigate that achievement. It's impossible, right? Wally West is responsible for carrying on the legacy of the Flash, and that's why he's important. I mean, without Wally, the legacy could never continue...oh, wait...So all along, Barry had this ability to create new speedsters just by running fast? That he created future generations of Flashes just by existing? Yeah, that is kind of a blow to Wally's significance. BUT WAIT, who's to say that those speedsters are all as noble and morally upstanding as Wally? Perhaps Wally kept the true legacy of the Flash alive by embodying the values of Barry Allen, and that's what makes him special and...huh? Oh, Barry's magic is smart enough to only turn people who share his sense of justice into speedsters. So really, every Flash ever is going to have a strong sense of justice. Oh. Oh well. So I guess that even his kid Iris is a Flash not because of her connection to Wally, but because of her connection to Barry. Meaning that The Flash has no real legacy; only Barry Allen has a legacy. It is only through Barry Allen that anyone can become a Flash, not through any other person. This seriously undercuts any function Wally has as a legacy character, because why was he ever needed? The legacy would have continued with or without him. That was the decree of Rebirth, and it really destroys any future Wally has as a continuing part of that legacy.


Problem #3: The issue of Identity.

I believe that contrary to popular belief, what made Wally West special was not that people enjoyed seeing him struggle with his mentor's memory. It was because they enjoyed seeing him struggle with himself. What made The Return of Barry Allen memorable was that he overcame his own self-doubt and made HIMSELF the Flash. One of the more subtly damaging moments of Rebirth and Blackest night were the moments that Barry told Wally he could still be the Flash. When Wally compared himself to Nightwing and Barry said no, no, you can be the Flash, too! It gave the ultimate power of identity back to Barry. Barry made the decision, not Wally. Even more than that, it eliminated the conflict. Conflict, which is at the heart of good storytelling. There were several opportunities to create new, exciting conflicts to replace the old ones. Such as if Barry genuinely wanted Wally to change his costume or name so that there would be no confusion. Or if Wally wanted to retire and Barry explained why the world still needed him. There was none. Wally's only new conflicts were the same ones that failed so badly at the end of his run: his children. And because they are now Barry's legacy more than his, it is a conflict that he will have to share with others.

So does anybody think there are ways to salvage these problems? Any ways to give back what Wally had or at the very least, give him something just as valuable?
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   Bagged & Boarded is offline   #2
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Ok, I don't have to time to get that into it as I am at work and kinda busy but I will say two things.

#1-I do think these things can be fixed. But I don't think they will because I do not believe the character of Wally West is that much of a priority anymore to anyone at DC. I just don't.

#2-When Wally said he was the Nightwing to Barry's Flash in Blackest Night was the THE worst Wally West moment ever IMO. It made zero sense for him to utter those words. Not after all he has been through.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   virtuadept is offline   #3
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Wally has a direction. It's called DOWN baby. But seriously, I think it sucks but what can you do. Our Flash has been hijacked. Long live the Barry.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   Jeffrey Neary is offline   #4
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The things you list above to me are not what makes Wally interesting or unique..nor are some of them negated as you claim.

But that aside, if these things are what makes Wally interesting..then taking them away would cause one NOT to care about the character. Personally speaking, thats not the case. I found Wally interesting before the speed force was created. I found Wally interested when the subject of the issue didn't tie into his taking on his mentor's mantle. I found Wally interesting when he could only run at the speed of sound.

Its the character, the personality that I did..not the milestones or unique powers.

But thats MY take.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   bizarromark is offline   #5
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I would argue that Barry Allen never really went away following his death in Crisis and Wally taking over his mantle...with emphasis on "his".

Most of the first decade's worth of Wally-Flash comics were spent examining his sense of worth (or lack thereof) in relation to Barry's legacy...or being compared to Barry by friends and enemies alike...and even visited by Barry himself from time to time (literally, thanks to the vagaries of time travel).

So, while Wally eventually did grow into the roll, the long shadow of Barry Allen has always been a part of his "run" as DC's Flash. So, I don't see Wally resuming a more secondary role as Barry usurping him so much as it is Barry resuming a role he never completely vacated....even in "death".
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   Stephen Henel is offline   #6
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The things you list above to me are not what makes Wally interesting or unique..nor are some of them negated as you claim.

But that aside, if these things are what makes Wally interesting..then taking them away would cause one NOT to care about the character. Personally speaking, thats not the case. I found Wally interesting before the speed force was created. I found Wally interested when the subject of the issue didn't tie into his taking on his mentor's mantle. I found Wally interesting when he could only run at the speed of sound.

Its the character, the personality that I did..not the milestones or unique powers.

But thats MY take.
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That's a good take. I don't believe that a character's direction or function is necessarily the same thing as what makes him interesting, though. In fact, I notice that you said you enjoyed issues where Wally's career was NOT tied into Barry's tenure as Flash, and I kind of agree with that when I said that what made Wally interesting was how he struggled with himself. The fact that his internal conflict was lessened by Barry Allen giving him an unconditional thumbs up and official standing as a Flash is something that greatly hurt the character. You can see how the damage done was threefold: his powers were lessened, his achievements were lessened, and his character was lessened. Now any one of these things might not be a huge hurdle, but all three of these things? In my opinion, it's hard to recover from something like that. Not impossible, of course, but the creative team would have to be truly committed. What's the one thing better than a Rebirth? Not putting a character in a position where it will take a Rebirth to make them relevant again.

I would argue that Barry Allen never really went away following his death in Crisis and Wally taking over his mantle...with emphasis on "his".

Most of the first decade's worth of Wally-Flash comics were spent examining his sense of worth (or lack thereof) in relation to Barry's legacy...or being compared to Barry by friends and enemies alike...and even visited by Barry himself from time to time (literally, thanks to the vagaries of time travel).

So, while Wally eventually did grow into the roll, the long shadow of Barry Allen has always been a part of his "run" as DC's Flash. So, I don't see Wally resuming a more secondary role as Barry usurping him so much as it is Barry resuming a role he never completely vacated....even in "death".
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And that's part of my point. Because of the retcons, Wally never really performed a necessary function at all in terms of legacy. You say that he grew into his "role," but now we know that that "role" was meaningless. I never made the claim that Barry was usurping anything, I was making the claim that because of recent events, what Wally had is now severely lessened. Because yes, until the retcons, Barry Allen was good and dead and Wally felt he needed to keep the legacy alive. He didn't. Dozens more Flashes would have popped up automatically through the magic of the Speed Force.

I would argue that there came a point in his series that Wally did become the Flash on his own terms, but with recent events, that means nothing. And like I said before, Barry Allen vs. Wally West was never a very interesting story. Wally West vs. Wally West was where the heart of the conflict resided.
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Old June 17th, 2010   Jeffrey Neary is offline   #7
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That's a good take. I don't believe that a character's direction or function is necessarily the same thing as what makes him interesting, though. In fact, I notice that you said you enjoyed issues where Wally's career was NOT tied into Barry's tenure as Flash, and I kind of agree with that when I said that what made Wally interesting was how he struggled with himself. The fact that his internal conflict was lessened by Barry Allen giving him an unconditional thumbs up and official standing as a Flash is something that greatly hurt the character. You can see how the damage done was threefold: his powers were lessened, his achievements were lessened, and his character was lessened. Now any one of these things might not be a huge hurdle, but all three of these things? In my opinion, it's hard to recover from something like that. Not impossible, of course, but the creative team would have to be truly committed. What's the one thing better than a Rebirth? Not putting a character in a position where it will take a Rebirth to make them relevant again.
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Well..just because I like stories where Wally wasn't focused on Barry doesn't mean that I dislike stories where Wally was focused on Barry.

As far as Barry giving Wally the thumbs up...I liked that as well..because having a character perpetually strive to be out of another character's shadow..and never get past it gets boring for me.

Its why Peter Parker annoys me after a while. I get it..he is broke. His aunt is sick...he can't find a stable job. To me Wally West was the anti-Peter Parker. Yes..he had loss..but it WASN'T due to his irresponsibility. Yes...he was broke..but he got past that. Yes...he could be a jerk..but he matured. And with respect to Wally..he didn't need to wonder if his Uncle approved..he knew he approved. Next chapter.

His powers have not been lessened. He just isn't the only one with them.
His achievements have not been negated..as they still occured. The fact that Barry is the engine of the speed force doesn't negate the fact that Wally WAS (ONE OF THE FIRST - lets not forget Savatar) who was able to mainline the Speed Force.
As far as the Flash Legacy is concerned, the starting point was never with Wally. So I see that as being a moot point.

Wally is happy, Wally is healthy, His a husband and father, His personality is in tact..and his mentor is back running at his side. To me these are good things. I don't see anything that requires "recovering". You point out some things that I see as accurate..and other things I disagree with..but even if I take them all as true..I still don't see Wally in a bad state because those are not the metrics that make a character viable.

Just because DC hasn't put Wally on a path doesn't mean there are no paths for Wally. In a universe where Hal can ring sling on Earth, Kyle and John can handle the corp and Guy gets his own title...I think they can figure out a path for Wally. We just need to have some patience and not convince ourselves that our favorite character is doomed.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   Jeffrey Neary is offline   #8
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I would argue that there came a point in his series that Wally did become the Flash on his own terms, but with recent events, that means nothing.
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While you are entitled to your opinion...I couldn't disagree more. Everything Wally accomplished at the time he accomplished them were very signivicant and meaningful. They were Heroic acts that proved his character and drive to do what was right. Because the source of the power turns out to be different than what people anticipated doesn't negate what Wally did with that power.

Wally West vs. Wally West was where the heart of the conflict resided.
ddf
Thats just one chapter of what the heart of the conflict happened to be. There are many more chapters that go beyond that and these chapters still exist (INCLUDING Wally vs Wally)
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   oddballuk is offline   #9
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Well..just because I like stories where Wally wasn't focused on Barry doesn't mean that I dislike stories where Wally was focused on Barry.

As far as Barry giving Wally the thumbs up...I liked that as well..because having a character perpetually strive to be out of another character's shadow..and never get past it gets boring for me.

Its why Peter Parker annoys me after a while. I get it..he is broke. His aunt is sick...he can't find a stable job. To me Wally West was the anti-Peter Parker. Yes..he had loss..but it WASN'T due to his irresponsibility. Yes...he was broke..but he got past that. Yes...he could be a jerk..but he matured. And with respect to Wally..he didn't need to wonder if his Uncle approved..he knew he approved. Next chapter.

His powers have not been lessened. He just isn't the only one with them.
His achievements have not been negated..as they still occured. The fact that Barry is the engine of the speed force doesn't negate the fact that Wally WAS (ONE OF THE FIRST - lets not forget Savatar) who was able to mainline the Speed Force.
As far as the Flash Legacy is concerned, the starting point was never with Wally. So I see that as being a moot point.

Wally is happy, Wally is healthy, His a husband and father, His personality is in tact..and his mentor is back running at his side. To me these are good things. I don't see anything that requires "recovering". You point out some things that I see as accurate..and other things I disagree with..but even if I take them all as true..I still don't see Wally in a bad state because those are not the metrics that make a character viable.

Just because DC hasn't put Wally on a path doesn't mean there are no paths for Wally. In a universe where Hal can ring sling on Earth, Kyle and John can handle the corp and Guy gets his own title...I think they can figure out a path for Wally. We just need to have some patience and not convince ourselves that our favorite character is doomed.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you Jeffrey.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   Stephen Henel is offline   #10
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As far as Barry giving Wally the thumbs up...I liked that as well..because having a character perpetually strive to be out of another character's shadow..and never get past it gets boring for me.

Its why Peter Parker annoys me after a while. I get it..he is broke. His aunt is sick...he can't find a stable job. To me Wally West was the anti-Peter Parker. Yes..he had loss..but it WASN'T due to his irresponsibility. Yes...he was broke..but he got past that. Yes...he could be a jerk..but he matured. And with respect to Wally..he didn't need to wonder if his Uncle approved..he knew he approved. Next chapter.
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That is not Wally West getting out of Barry's shadow, though. Wally getting out of Barry's shadow would be WALLY deciding he's the Flash, not BARRY deciding he's the Flash. The issue wasn't resolved, it was just abandoned. Or rather, it was resolved under Waid, where Wally was confident in his identity, it was just undone and THEN abandoned.

His powers have not been lessened. He just isn't the only one with them.
His achievements have not been negated..as they still occured. The fact that Barry is the engine of the speed force doesn't negate the fact that Wally WAS (ONE OF THE FIRST - lets not forget Savatar) who was able to mainline the Speed Force.
As far as the Flash Legacy is concerned, the starting point was never with Wally. So I see that as being a moot point.
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It's moot because the Legacy is moot, not just through Wally, but through all the Flashes. One can only become the Flash through Barry Allen by being like Barry Allen, and none of the other Flashes can exist without him. There is no legacy. It's a prerequisite of being the Flash to be like Barry, not an end-goal.

Wally is happy, Wally is healthy, His a husband and father, His personality is in tact..and his mentor is back running at his side. To me these are good things. I don't see anything that requires "recovering". You point out some things that I see as accurate..and other things I disagree with..but even if I take them all as true..I still don't see Wally in a bad state because those are not the metrics that make a character viable.
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No, what makes a character viable and interesting is conflict. Happy and healthy and being largely unneccesary would make anybody content. But it never makes them exciting to read. Nobody wants to see a James Bond movie where he rakes the lawn while his loving wife brings him lemonade. It makes for a good ending, but a terrible new beginning. Does Wally have more conflicts and rivalries coming out of Rebirth or less? I would say a heck of a lot less.

While you are entitled to your opinion...I couldn't disagree more. Everything Wally accomplished at the time he accomplished them were very signivicant and meaningful. They were Heroic acts that proved his character and drive to do what was right. Because the source of the power turns out to be different than what people anticipated doesn't negate what Wally did with that power.
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I'm saying that it's meaningless in terms of the Flash legacy. As it would have continued with or without him.

Wally actions are only meaningless in terms of their effect on the character and the people around him if the writers ignore their effects on the character and the people around him.

Thats just one chapter of what the heart of the conflict happened to be. There are many more chapters that go beyond that and these chapters still exist (INCLUDING Wally vs Wally)
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Character growth cannot exist without Wally vs. Wally on some level. That's what internal conflict IS. If these chapters still exist, then no groundwork is being laid for them. Which is the reason for the concern.
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Old June 17th, 2010   Jeffrey Neary is offline   #11
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I'm saying that it's meaningless in terms of the Flash legacy. As it would have continued with or without him.

Wally actions are only meaningless in terms of their effect on the character and the people around him if the writers ignore their effects on the character and the people around him.
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Thats like saying that you participated in building a house with your family but if you never existed the house would have still been built.

MAYBE thats true..but even if it is..does that mean you didn't participate in building a house? Do you lose credit for what you did...or the fact that WE ARE ALL replaceable negate the impact we have?



Character growth cannot exist without Wally vs. Wally on some level. That's what internal conflict IS. If these chapters still exist, then no groundwork is being laid for them.
ddf
Are we talking about internal conflict..or conflict?

Yes..Internal conflict is Wally vs Wally..but I wasn't limiting the discussion to just internal conflict.

Perhaps I misunderstood.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   Stephen Henel is offline   #12
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Thats like saying that you participated in building a house with your family but if you never existed the house would have still been built.

MAYBE thats true..but even if it is..does that mean you didn't participate in building a house? Do you lose credit for what you did...or the fact that WE ARE ALL replaceable negate the impact we have?
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If my father was a master housebuilder, and on his deathbed told me that it was up to me to finish the family house, and I drove thousands of miles to do it, quit my job and trained tirelessly to be the best housebuilder ever, and people celebrated me as the master housebuilder, and then I got home, and it turned out that my father had secretly trained dozens more to be just as good as me and they had already done half of the work (with my father, who was still alive)...then yes, it definitely lessens the impact of my achievements. It might not negate them, but it sure as hell lessens them.





Are we talking about internal conflict..or conflict?

Yes..Internal conflict is Wally vs Wally..but I wasn't limiting the discussion to just internal conflict.

Perhaps I misunderstood.
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Yeah, I was talking internal conflict. Not Wally vs. a doppelganger or anything. It's interesting because Wally is not cool with himself or his situation, and so he has to force himself to change who he is on the inside.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   oddballuk is offline   #13
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If my father was a master housebuilder, and on his deathbed told me that it was up to me to finish the family house, and I drove thousands of miles to do it, quit my job and trained tirelessly to be the best housebuilder ever, and people celebrated me as the master housebuilder, and then I got home, and it turned out that my father had secretly trained dozens more to be just as good as me and they had already done half of the work (with my father, who was still alive)...then yes, it definitely lessens the impact of my achievements. It might not negate them, but it sure as hell lessens them.
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That would be disheartening.

Good thing that didn't happen with Wally then.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   Stephen Henel is offline   #14
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That would be disheartening.

Good thing that didn't happen with Wally then.
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Yes, being the Flash is quite a bit different than a building a house.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   oddballuk is offline   #15
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Yes, being the Flash is quite a bit different than a building a house.
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Oh, I think Jeffrey's metaphor is apt.
 
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Old June 17th, 2010   Stephen Henel is offline   #16
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Oh, I think Jeffrey's metaphor is apt.
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So then how does building a house tie into legacy?
 
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