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Old January 29th, 2007   BrianT is offline   #65
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There have been a number of attempts, Chronos, Firestorm, Manhunter, Atom, Supergirl (twice), Fate and revised Team Books like Teen Titans, Outsiders, Challengers of the Unknown and JSA.
ddf
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Exactly and they haven't worked. (I assume you mean Jurgens' Teen Titans because the current book is a continuation of the original TT concept as is JSA)

Starman didn't keep the previous character involved. The previous character was Will Payton whose wasn't a factor in the comic for a number of years.
ddf
The previous Starman I was referring to was Ted Knight. Will Payton had been dead for a few years by then. And despite him being dead, they still managed to work him in there.

To be fair, new comics in general seem to be a hard sell on this I think we can agree. However there have been a few "successes" in the reused name category. I can't think of any in the totally new character one, but perhaps I'm overlooking things?
ddf
We can agree that new characters whether legacy or otherwise have an extremely difficult time in the market (and that pretty much every new book has the odds against it). One book (Starman) does not give much support to the reused name category, IMO. Especially considering the number of other failed attempts. And one would think that if only one attempt has worked, subsequent attempts would try to follow in the mold of the lone success instead of the mold of the numerous failures. And if both are likely to fail, it's probably better that they don't go with the option that tends to upset readers.

Actually I agree with you on this; I said in my post that spinning characters out of other books seem to be the better way to do things, and most of those characters are appearing elsewhere so should be familiar enough with readers if DC wanted to use them.
ddf
Exactly. I fail to see the logic of DC not utilizing its existing characterbase to the fullest.

Because anthologies don't sell? Because they don't want to risk sales on Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman et al to showcase other characters?
ddf
Even still, look at the number of characters from team books that could be spun off into their own title. Cyborg, Mr. Terrific, Dr. Mid-Nite, Stargirl, Power Girl, Arsenal, etc. Or supporting characters from solo books like with what they're doing with Connor Hawke. New characters are still introduced in ongoing titles that do gain some level of popularity, like Black Alice. DC has slowly tested the waters with that character, she's gotten a good reaction and now they should try her in a solo mini. They tried out the current Supergirl in S/B before giving her a series... DC has started anthology books again with Mystery in Space and Tales of the Unexpected, rather than give the 8 back up features in MiS to The Weird, they could have tried out a new cosmic character in one of the issues. And I for one loved the backup stories in James Robinson's OYL Batman arc and LoSH. As well as the current direction of JSA: Classified which showcases solo characters. I don't think adding 8 pages and $.50 to showcase Batman-related and Superman-related characters in Detective and Action, respectively, or collectively in S/B would affect the bottom line much on those titles.

I never said that they weren't. I will dispute claims that replacing an ancient Egyptian male character with an Egyptian-American male character is part of a plan toward replacing characters to increase the diversity in the DCU.
ddf
I'm not talking about this particular instance with Ibis. I'm referring to the general statement Ravenwing made.
 
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Old January 29th, 2007   Amentep is offline   #66
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Exactly and they haven't worked. (I assume you mean Jurgens' Teen Titans because the current book is a continuation of the original TT concept as is JSA)
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Actually I was counting both Teen Titans. I don't see this Teen Titans - which started out being about Cyborg and Starfire and kinda Gar mentoring new young teen heroes on the weekend - as being similar to the original idea of a club for kid sidekicks. Its a bit closer to the "plain clothes" second period of the original Teen Titans' second period with Loren Jupitor trying to mentor the teens.

And the modern JSA - with its eyes to legacy characters - is IMO a different comic concept than the earlier JSA's.

But that may just be me.

The previous Starman I was referring to was Ted Knight. Will Payton had been dead for a few years by then. And despite him being dead, they still managed to work him in there.
ddf
Well that's the thing though, Ted Knight was...what 3 Starman removed from the last Starman? I'm not saying the title wasn't great or anything, but it was a complete break from what came before (although it did end up encorporating that eventually; but Manhunter got to Mark Shaw and the other Manhunters faster than Starman got to Will Payton).

We can agree that new characters whether legacy or otherwise have an extremely difficult time in the market (and that pretty much every new book has the odds against it). One book (Starman) does not give much support to the reused name category, IMO. Especially considering the number of other failed attempts. And one would think that if only one attempt has worked, subsequent attempts would try to follow in the mold of the lone success instead of the mold of the numerous failures. And if both are likely to fail, it's probably better that they don't go with the option that tends to upset readers.
ddf
Ah, but I also mentioned historical prescedent of the name change. Green Lantern (Alan Scott-Hal Jordan-Kyle Rayner) and Flash (Jay Garrick-Barry Allen-Wally West) are probably the prime examples of characters that were changed and got continued sales.

I'd also count PAD's Supergirl as a success; sure it was cancelled but after 81 issues. That's a pretty solid run.

And frankly I'm not convinced that some section of readers will be upset no matter what route they go. Doing a new character will raise cries of "why didn't they give 'character x' a book?". Replacing a character has the obvious issues. Bringing out a minor character and trying them out will bring cries of "Why are they giving that tired character a book? They've never been able to support a book. Why not create something new?"

So it seems - to me at least - there's no way DC can please the fans, really, other than throwing some of all of that out there and hoping for the best.

Exactly. I fail to see the logic of DC not utilizing its existing characterbase to the fullest.
ddf
Well they have tried to give other characters a shot - two Martian Manhunter tries, a second go at the Checkmate! concept, another go at Suicide Squad coming up (after a previous try didn't work), and minis with the Spectre, Captain Comet and Adam Strange recently come to mind.

Even still, look at the number of characters from team books that could be spun off into their own title. Cyborg, Mr. Terrific, Dr. Mid-Nite, Stargirl, Power Girl, Arsenal, etc. Or supporting characters from solo books like with what they're doing with Connor Hawke. New characters are still introduced in ongoing titles that do gain some level of popularity, like Black Alice. DC has slowly tested the waters with that character, she's gotten a good reaction and now they should try her in a solo mini. They tried out the current Supergirl in S/B before giving her a series... DC has started anthology books again with Mystery in Space and Tales of the Unexpected, rather than give the 8 back up features in MiS to The Weird, they could have tried out a new cosmic character in one of the issues. And I for one loved the backup stories in James Robinson's OYL Batman arc and LoSH. As well as the current direction of JSA: Classified which showcases solo characters. I don't think adding 8 pages and $.50 to showcase Batman-related and Superman-related characters in Detective and Action, respectively, or collectively in S/B would affect the bottom line much on those titles.
ddf
Well I'd like to see them do more anthology stuff or rotating backup features. But I like anthology stuff anyhow.


I'm not talking about this particular instance with Ibis. I'm referring to the general statement Ravenwing made.
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Yeah but I just want to make it clear that lumping Ibis into that - as some have on this thread - makes no sense.
 
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Old January 29th, 2007   BrianT is offline   #67
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Actually I was counting both Teen Titans. I don't see this Teen Titans - which started out being about Cyborg and Starfire and kinda Gar mentoring new young teen heroes on the weekend - as being similar to the original idea of a club for kid sidekicks. Its a bit closer to the "plain clothes" second period of the original Teen Titans' second period with Loren Jupitor trying to mentor the teens.

And the modern JSA - with its eyes to legacy characters - is IMO a different comic concept than the earlier JSA's.

But that may just be me.
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I look at them as revivals, but that may just be me.

Well that's the thing though, Ted Knight was...what 3 Starman removed from the last Starman? I'm not saying the title wasn't great or anything, but it was a complete break from what came before (although it did end up encorporating that eventually; but Manhunter got to Mark Shaw and the other Manhunters faster than Starman got to Will Payton).
ddf
Ted was the last person to hold the Starman mantle prior to David taking the mantle and then Jack. Will Payton died in Eclipso: Darkness Within which was in the summer of '92, I don't know when Prince Gavyn was last seen. Ted was in the JSofA series which launched late summer of '92 and he was Starman up until Zero Hour in '04 when David took over (for an issue) and then to Jack. Starman built on a Starman legacy from the get go, even if it's not the one you associated with the name "Starman" at the time. And Will's sister was introduced from early on, no?

Ah, but I also mentioned historical prescedent of the name change. Green Lantern (Alan Scott-Hal Jordan-Kyle Rayner) and Flash (Jay Garrick-Barry Allen-Wally West) are probably the prime examples of characters that were changed and got continued sales.
ddf
And what worked 30-40 years ago can't possibly be expected to work now in a drastically different market. Even the "shock and awe" speculator market of the 90s can't be compared to today.

I'd also count PAD's Supergirl as a success; sure it was cancelled but after 81 issues. That's a pretty solid run.
ddf
Agreed, an impressive run. However, that character started out as Matrix before eventually becoming Supergirl and she regularly appeared in the Superman titles for a few years before getting her own mini and then her own ongoing. She was allowed to develop as a character and grow a fanbase prior to being expected to carry her own series. And she was first tested with one shots and a mini. DC would find similar success if they tried this more often.

And frankly I'm not convinced that some section of readers will be upset no matter what route they go. Doing a new character will raise cries of "why didn't they give 'character x' a book?". Replacing a character has the obvious issues. Bringing out a minor character and trying them out will bring cries of "Why are they giving that tired character a book? They've never been able to support a book. Why not create something new?"

So it seems - to me at least - there's no way DC can please the fans, really, other than throwing some of all of that out there and hoping for the best.
ddf
True, you're never gonna please everyone. But confused or disappointed are much easier emotions to deal with than anger. Although frankly, I don't see many people complaining about established characters getting shots. Certainly not as much as people complaining about a character being replaced nor as intensely.

Well they have tried to give other characters a shot - two Martian Manhunter tries, a second go at the Checkmate! concept, another go at Suicide Squad coming up (after a previous try didn't work), and minis with the Spectre, Captain Comet and Adam Strange recently come to mind.
ddf
True, and I don't recall anyone complaining that those characters/concepts got new series. They may complain about the execution, direction, or quality of the series, but not the simple fact that they got a series.

And if you want to talk track records, in the current market, revivals have done much better than new characters (whether legacies or all new identities), so if you want to talk about going where the numbers are, then that would seem to be the direction to go in.

Well I'd like to see them do more anthology stuff or rotating backup features. But I like anthology stuff anyhow.
ddf
Same here.

Yeah but I just want to make it clear that lumping Ibis into that - as some have on this thread - makes no sense.
ddf
Fair enough.
 
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Old January 30th, 2007   Amentep is offline   #68
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I look at them as revivals, but that may just be me.
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I dunno, they were significantly different, had different people involved, the way the teams worked were different. A revival to me keeps the same basic setup and characters of the original as its starting point.

Ted was the last person to hold the Starman mantle prior to David taking the mantle and then Jack. Will Payton died in Eclipso: Darkness Within which was in the summer of '92, I don't know when Prince Gavyn was last seen. Ted was in the JSofA series which launched late summer of '92 and he was Starman up until Zero Hour in '04 when David took over (for an issue) and then to Jack. Starman built on a Starman legacy from the get go, even if it's not the one you associated with the name "Starman" at the time. And Will's sister was introduced from early on, no?
ddf
I'm going to conceed this point, as I'd forgotten that the 92 Justice Society came after the Eclipso stuff.

Will's sister was introduced early on, but not revealed as Will's sister until the Annual, IIRC, though. But it doesn't matter, because you're right about Ted's "reinstatement" as the Starman of the time.

And what worked 30-40 years ago can't possibly be expected to work now in a drastically different market. Even the "shock and awe" speculator market of the 90s can't be compared to today.
ddf
Well neither Hal-Kyle nor Barry-Wally was 30-40 years ago, and I'm not sure Wally really played into the speculator market either.

I think that DC though has tried a number of different ways to attract readers, new characters, character revivals and new character-same name stuff.

Agreed, an impressive run. However, that character started out as Matrix before eventually becoming Supergirl and she regularly appeared in the Superman titles for a few years before getting her own mini and then her own ongoing. She was allowed to develop as a character and grow a fanbase prior to being expected to carry her own series. And she was first tested with one shots and a mini. DC would find similar success if they tried this more often.
ddf
Well I can see your point, but the Supergirl introduced in #1 is vastly different from the Matrix-Supergirl seen prior to that issue. But it isn't really a restart either, so certainly there was a degree of familiarity with the character.

And again I agree that DC should test the waters; I'm glad that they tried a bunch of miniseries recently rather than ongoings. It'd be nice to see popular team book characters get a mini-tryout as well.

True, you're never gonna please everyone. But confused or disappointed are much easier emotions to deal with than anger. Although frankly, I don't see many people complaining about established characters getting shots. Certainly not as much as people complaining about a character being replaced nor as intensely.
ddf
Depends on the established character, I think.

True, and I don't recall anyone complaining that those characters/concepts got new series. They may complain about the execution, direction, or quality of the series, but not the simple fact that they got a series.

And if you want to talk track records, in the current market, revivals have done much better than new characters (whether legacies or all new identities), so if you want to talk about going where the numbers are, then that would seem to be the direction to go in.
ddf
Well I do remember people complaining about The Spectre headlining a second mini so soon after the first, but yeah most people don't seem to complain about that (of course the Spectre is sorta a new character-old name too...)
 
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Old January 30th, 2007   BrianT is offline   #69
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Hmm... I didn't see any of those complaints about the second Spectre mini. Although I think Spectre/Crispus Allen is a perfect passing of the mantle example. I just didn't care for the story in the first mini, so passed on the second. I don't think any of the backups featured any of the DC magic characters I like either. Although news of Tom Mandrake doing an issue is probably enough for me to check out that issue at least.

Wonder if there's time to slip the new Ibis into one of those backups. If not, definitely for the next Tales of the Unexpected mini then (assuming there is one).
 
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Old January 31st, 2007   Amentep is offline   #70
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Well I do remember seeing people complain about it, but it wasn't very strong complaints.

It probably is too late for an Ibis in the backup, but I hope the character gets more exposure. Build that fanbase DC and release the ongoing!
 
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Old January 31st, 2007   BrianT is offline   #71
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The choices DC made for the backups of TotU and MiS are odd ones, IMO. Looking back at the list of announced characters showing, the only one I'm interested in seeing is Freedom Beast and Tracie 13 somewhat. Hopefully, they're in #6, the Mandrake issue. Phantom Stranger looks to be in that issue at least.
 
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Old February 1st, 2007   Amentep is offline   #72
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The whole backup thing in both TotU and MiS is odd. The MiS is more of a companions series and I'm not sure what to make of the TotU backup (which is often more fun than the main story) since what's going on in it doesn't make sense yet.
 
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Old February 1st, 2007   BrianT is offline   #73
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Yeah and I thought the TotU backup was only 6 patrts but it looks to be continuing into the 7th issue as well. Too bad, they could have used those last two issues to showcase some of their up and coming magic characters that DC seems to be pushing like the new Ibis, Sargon or Black Alice or Zatara. Or go with an old favorite like Demon or Madame Xanadu.
 
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Old February 1st, 2007   Amentep is offline   #74
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Well I hope there will be a place for these characters; its awful to create them and give them no place to shine (a bit like my pet peeve of bringing characters back from the dead only to shuffle them back to limbo).
 
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Old February 1st, 2007   BrianT is offline   #75
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I agree. It's even worse to replace a character and then never use the replacement again. Maybe this Helmet of Fate mini wasn't planned out before the TotU mini, so the characters featured here couldn't show up there. Hopefully in the next mini then, if there is one. There's always Shadowpact as well.
 
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Old May 20th, 2008   Amentep is offline   #76
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Looks like Ibis and Sargon make the cover to Reign in Hell #2 (along with Zatanna, Blue Devil and Black Alice)

 
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Old May 20th, 2008   imnosuperman is offline   #77
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Damn, that cover is freeeeeaaaaaky.
 
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Old May 20th, 2008   Amentep is offline   #78
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I'm hoping that's a good sign!
 
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