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Old September 20th, 2006   hotrod77 is offline   #1
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Default Johns Confirms Hippolyta was a member of the JSA

Geoff has finally cleared up the status of Hippolyta in the JSA (not to mention who does and doesn't remember the multiverse). Here's his post in the Dale Eaglesham interview at Newsarama.com:

Actually, the only one who remembers events like that is Power Girl.

Everyone on the JSA, from Earth 2, have vague recollections that there was a multiverse but that's it. DCU history is nearly identical to what it was.

Why is Power Girl the only one with real Earth 2 memories will be explained in Justice Society of America. I think some confusion has come from interpretation of interviews more than the comics themselves.

Hippolyta was a member of JSA, Matrix Supergirl did exist, Etc.

Geoff
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   holo2 is offline   #2
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YES! I really liked this retconn. I know that alot of people had issues with John Byrne's run on Wonder Woman. I personally liked it. I liked the nod that he gave the JSA and I enjoy the fact that this is still the case. Great news!
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   aflahive is offline   #3
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not sure if this is a confirmation, or him giving examples of things that have been cast into confustion in fans heads due to the interent
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   GLJeans is offline   #4
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I liked this retcon too... Hippolyta, can't rember when you weren't there, but it's great to have you back!

Now is it still Wonder W0man at the beginning of the JLA or Black Canary? Is this covered in the ect. or what?
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   Rajah1 is offline   #5
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It sounds like a confirmation to me but I suppose those last lines could be misleading. I was also a fan of this retcon so I hope I'm interpreting those comments correctly. Hippolyta made a great Golden Age Wonder Woman. And since Infinite Crisis didn't bring back the Multiverse (which I think would have been a mistake after all these years but that's just me), I'm cool with Polly retaining that role.

GLJeans, it seems to be Wonder Woman as a League founder, as of Brad Meltzer's JLofA #0. That's one the confirmed tweaks to history.
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   Kane_fan is offline   #6
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What I interpret is that Geoff is giving examples of confusions from interviews. It doesn't sound like he confirms anything.

I'm on the side of Bryne making too many mistakes with the Wonder Woman series. Hippolyta as the golden age Wonder Woman was a horrible mistake IMHO.

As JSofA starts up I'm sure will know for sure which, if any, Wonder Woman particpated in the JSofA.
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   Patrick Gerard is offline   #7
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While I think Geoff is saying that these things still happened...

... I'm gonna say, as I have before, that Matrix needs a new origin story.

The Pocket Universe story is tied to a version of the Legion that's three to four reboots old.

And Zod is about to get revamped again.

It's bad enough that Superman met at least two alternate universe Supergirls before the "real" one but the same is essentially true with Zod.

Please don't let a love of past stories clutter up the DCU.

I'd really, REALLY encourage Geoff and DC to retell Matrix's origin in a way that hits the same or similar emotional beats without cluttering things up with a Pocket Universe (which has no reason to exist) or an extra Zod.

I'm not saying that Linda Danvers or the earthborn angels or shapeshifting Matrix need to be erased but I think they desperately need to be contextualized without the Time Trapper or the pre-Crisis Legion being part of that backstory.
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   Human Bong is offline   #8
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While I think Geoff is saying that these things still happened...

... I'm gonna say, as I have before, that Matrix needs a new origin story.

The Pocket Universe story is tied to a version of the Legion that's three to four reboots old.

And Zod is about to get revamped again.

It's bad enough that Superman met at least two alternate universe Supergirls before the "real" one but the same is essentially true with Zod.

Please don't let a love of past stories clutter up the DCU.

I'd really, REALLY encourage Geoff and DC to retell Matrix's origin in a way that hits the same or similar emotional beats without cluttering things up with a Pocket Universe (which has no reason to exist) or an extra Zod.

I'm not saying that Linda Danvers or the earthborn angels or shapeshifting Matrix need to be erased but I think they desperately need to be contextualized without the Time Trapper or the pre-Crisis Legion being part of that backstory.
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I doubt she'll get a new origin anytime soon.

Anyways, you don't have to mention the zero hour legion stuff at all. She's simply from an alternate world where clark kent died and Luthor created a the matrix to replace him. Upon that world's destruction she came to ours. The Legion/Zero Hour stuff just makes it cooler to us long time fans.




I thought the Hyppolyta retcon was one of the best ones yet. Never cared about the character until the whole time travel thing.
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   James Melanson is offline   #9
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What a shame. This was a perfect opportunity to undo a terrible mistake, ie, retconning Hippolyta into the Golden Age wonder Woman. Thus elevating her above Diana. A terrible mistake. And a real blow to the unique quality of this character. I hope this can still be undone. Please rethink this Geoff. Diana should be THE Wonder Woman.

There's a reason why Jor-El wasn't retconned into the GA Superman, and Thomas Wayne wasn't rewritten as the GA Batman. Wonder Woman should be in that league. Not retconned into a "daughter of" character. It damages this character tremendously.

Byrne's mistake should be undone.

Frankly, I never understood the Hippolyta love. She had no significant storyline; she mostly served as background color. She had a couple of lines here and there, and swung her sword a couple of times. But other than some great duds, there wasn't really much to write home about. I often think that people liked her better because they could project any personality they wanted onto her; any specificity.

I understand JSA fans-who never liked Wonder Woman-liking Hippy because of the JSA association. But as a Wonder Woman fan, I feel mortified. Sixty years of history down the drain. And one of the most important comics creations, and a feminist icon, reduced to a mother-daughter fight over identity. Yuck.
 
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Old September 20th, 2006   Jake1823 is offline   #10
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What a shame. This was a perfect opportunity to undo a terrible mistake, ie, retconning Hippolyta into the Golden Age wonder Woman. Thus elevating her above Diana. A terrible mistake. And a real blow to the unique quality of this character. I hope this can still be undone. Please rethink this Geoff. Diana should be THE Wonder Woman.

There's a reason why Jor-El wasn't retconned into the GA Superman, and Thomas Wayne wasn't rewritten as the GA Batman. Wonder Woman should be in that league. Not retconned into a "daughter of" character. It damages this character tremendously.

Byrne's mistake should be undone.
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I agree. WW loses that certain unique something that the Trinity has now. At least imo.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   reasonablefan1 is offline   #11
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There's a reason why Jor-El wasn't retconned into the GA Superman, and Thomas Wayne wasn't rewritten as the GA Batman. Wonder Woman should be in that league. Not retconned into a "daughter of" character. It damages this character tremendously.
. . .
But as a Wonder Woman fan, I feel mortified. Sixty years of history down the drain. And one of the most important comics creations, and a feminist icon, reduced to a mother-daughter fight over identity. Yuck.
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No matter how many times I've read it, this argument continues to elude me.

The in-universe history of these characters is largely irrelevant to a character's stature. Stature comes from the perception of the character by READERS and I would be very comfortable assertng that the Polly as WW retcon did not suddenly make scores of fans leap up and say, "I used think Diana was special and wonderful, but now that there is another Golden Age Wonder Woman, I think she's just another character." Actually, if even a single person had that reaction I'd be surprised.

The Jor-El and Thomas Wayne examples underscore just how much this situation is different. Both men are created-for-comics characters who as of the first appearance of their sons in costume were dead.

Diana was CREATED to be the daughter of a legend. Marston could have created an original character, but he chose not to. Instead, he reached out and pulled a character out of myth - a character who had a stature all her own. And he continued to have Hippolyta play an active role in Diana's life.

This retcon changes nothing that any fan perceives as they pick up today's comics. Diana is the DCU's Wonder Woman. She's the one in her own book. She's the one who is part of the trinity. She's the one in the JLA. She's the most powerful, the most respected, the most famous female hero.

None of that is changed by Polly being Wonder Woman - especially given that Polly is dead and we have no on-going series set in the WWII era.

One could certainly argue that it is much MORE of an achievement for the child of a legend to not only succeed in the same "field" but to surpass her parent's achievements and carve out a much, much greater legend for herself.

Besides, Polly as the GA WW is absolutely the only non-laughable explanation for Diana to be running around in the star-spangled bathing suit.
 
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Old September 25th, 2006   Rajah1 is offline   #12
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The Jor-El and Thomas Wayne examples underscore just how much this situation is different. Both men are created-for-comics characters who as of the first appearance of their sons in costume were dead.

Diana was CREATED to be the daughter of a legend. Marston could have created an original character, but he chose not to. Instead, he reached out and pulled a character out of myth - a character who had a stature all her own. And he continued to have Hippolyta play an active role in Diana's life.
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I completely agree with this. That's why I like the Hippolyta retcon. She was indeed a legend already and there was just something so right (to me) about the mythical Queen of the Amazons fighting beside the legends of World War II. It's why I like seeing Thor or Hercules in the Avengers, a direct tie between the myths of the past and the heroes of today. In the absence of a Multiverse counterpart of Diana, this was the best alternative.

What screwed it up, I think, was John Byrne's rather convoluted time travel story and the fact that the public of the DCU considers Polly the first Wonder Woman historically. If it were up to me, I would use Infinite Crisis to slightly tweak this but not remove Polly altogether (which would only get us back at square one with a big empty space in JSA history).

In my version, a Steve Trevor analog would crash on Themyscira during the war, thus alerting the Amazons to the desperate state the world is in. Most would vote for isolationism but Hippolyta (who watches the outsider die) is spurred to action. Leaving General Phillipus in charge, she departs for Man's World, takes part in the fight against the Nazis, and joins the JSA-- but as Hippolyta. No codename, no star-spangled uniform, just Amazon armor. Her teammates sometimes comment that Polly is "a regular wonder woman" but that's as far as I'd take it. When the war ends, she returns to Paradise and Diana's origin proceeds as already told.

This would remove the problem of a Wonder Woman predating Diana and would avoid potential time travel paradoxes. I think it would be the best compromise.
 
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Old September 25th, 2006   Jeff Nowicki is offline   #13
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Polly appeared in both JLA and JSA trades (which still sell very well) so it might be too confusing to just get rid of her. It made sense for her to become Wonder Woman when Diana "died."

The time travel part worked because it finally gave Donna an inspiration to become Wonder Girl. (Instead of all the reworking her history received as a result of the original Crisis.) Now I would assume they brought back the Donna being rescued from the fire by Diana origin? Or did they? Maybe somehow they all happened? She was an Earth 7 Harbinger or something.

Instead of saying things either happened or they didn't, DC is taking baby steps this time and thinking through all the ramifications before they make a blanket statement like 'Polly didn't go back in time.' Like when Byrne took away Superboy and the entire origin of the legion fell apart. I'm glad that the creators are thinking about what pulling this heroes past could do to the current timeline.

52 seems to be covering that with Booster Gold. I'm pretty sure the 52 website also had an article about mixed up history books contradicting what people remember. For now, I guess it all happened, but it could've happened in a different timestream. Yet...they all remember it even if it didn't happen that way.



No wonder Psycho Pirate went crazy...
 
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Old September 25th, 2006   Mark MacMillan is offline   #14
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Polly appeared in both JLA and JSA trades (which still sell very well) so it might be too confusing to just get rid of her. It made sense for her to become Wonder Woman when Diana "died."

The time travel part worked because it finally gave Donna an inspiration to become Wonder Girl. (Instead of all the reworking her history received as a result of the original Crisis.) Now I would assume they brought back the Donna being rescued from the fire by Diana origin? Or did they? Maybe somehow they all happened? She was an Earth 7 Harbinger or something.

Instead of saying things either happened or they didn't, DC is taking baby steps this time and thinking through all the ramifications before they make a blanket statement like 'Polly didn't go back in time.' Like when Byrne took away Superboy and the entire origin of the legion fell apart. I'm glad that the creators are thinking about what pulling this heroes past could do to the current timeline.

52 seems to be covering that with Booster Gold. I'm pretty sure the 52 website also had an article about mixed up history books contradicting what people remember. For now, I guess it all happened, but it could've happened in a different timestream. Yet...they all remember it even if it didn't happen that way.



No wonder Psycho Pirate went crazy...
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Actually, after COIE I was simply hoping they'd have said Diana entered Man's World during WWII. She's simply an immortal Amazon Princess and therefore doesn't age like average humans do.

Wonder Woman's history could've all happened in one single timeline without the time paradoxes and constant retconning.

She'd still be a member of the JSA and founding member of the JLA.

Fury would be her daughter again.

Donna would have her origin back.

She wouldn't need to have her age retconned like Superman and Batman.

Now I don't think Wonder Woman will ever be as popular as Superman and Batman, basically because from what I understand, female characters generally have a harder time selling than male characters in this day and age, but if she's to remain a viable character, her and her world have got to become a bit more accessible, IMO.
 
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Old September 22nd, 2006   reasonablefan1 is offline   #15
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But as a Wonder Woman fan, I feel mortified. Sixty years of history down the drain. And one of the most important comics creations, and a feminist icon, reduced to a mother-daughter fight over identity. Yuck.
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There is another truth here worth looking at - Wonder Woman is not a simple character.

Batman and Superman - in concept - are very simple characters. They represent clear, easy to understand archtypes and philosophies. You can distill Batman and Superman into a couple of sentenes using words that (and this is the most important part) that have a meanings about which we can all agree . The same holds true for Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne. Sure there are nuances, but if I say "mild mannered", "reporter," "raised on a farm in Kansas" - those things create immediate and commonly-understood perceptions.

Marston was going for something different. He wasn't trying to embody an a core archtype. He was trying to make a far more complicated statement. He was offering his own, at times contradictory and at times subversive, view of womanhood.

And in order to make that view more palatable, he wrapped in a packaging (the American flag) that would resonate with the public at the time. But while that was a smart short-term decision, it only added layers of complication. It is not a coincidence that none of the post-Golden Age analogues for Wonder Woman (i.e. Power Princess, Thundra, Promethea) have embraced the partriotic trappings of the character.

Wonder Woman was the expression of "womanhood" is complicated because there is no consensus on what that word means. Honestly, it is in any wonder (no pun intended) that the character has morphed so much over the last 60 years given the cultural struggles during that time? Society in general, and women in particular, have struggled balancing traditional notions & progress, equality & femininity.

There is no singular character named "Diana." There is no singular character named "Wonder Woman." Over the years, these characters have passed through the hands of hundreds of writers and artists and there are a variety of different and legitimate interpretations - each of which has its adherents and detractors.

Superman, by contrast, has had far less variability and it is much easier to "integrate" the different aspects of his history into a single view. Batman has had a wider range but they all tend to fall within a certain pattern that allows the character to travel along a pendulum. Recently, we reached the far end of the pendulum (dark, gritty) and now we are seeing it swing back.

With Wonder Woman, there is no pendulum and there can be no integration. The pieces are too fractured, too inconsistent. And so the advantage of a Golden Age Wonder Woman character is that the character can be used to embody a different aesthetic than the modern Wonder Woman character - allowing a greater representation of character's history and legacy.

In a multiverse setting, it would be irrelevant. But in a single universe, the choices are more limited. The modern DCU Diana simply would not work in a World War II setting unless you had her act as an entirely different character.

And, in the end of the day, what really weakens Diana as Wonder Woman is not a lack of singularity but the absence a specific and consistent point of view.
 
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Old September 27th, 2006   Sentinel is offline   #16
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What a shame. This was a perfect opportunity to undo a terrible mistake, ie, retconning Hippolyta into the Golden Age wonder Woman. Thus elevating her above Diana. A terrible mistake. And a real blow to the unique quality of this character. I hope this can still be undone. Please rethink this Geoff. Diana should be THE Wonder Woman.

There's a reason why Jor-El wasn't retconned into the GA Superman, and Thomas Wayne wasn't rewritten as the GA Batman. Wonder Woman should be in that league. Not retconned into a "daughter of" character. It damages this character tremendously.

Byrne's mistake should be undone.

Frankly, I never understood the Hippolyta love. She had no significant storyline; she mostly served as background color. She had a couple of lines here and there, and swung her sword a couple of times. But other than some great duds, there wasn't really much to write home about. I often think that people liked her better because they could project any personality they wanted onto her; any specificity.

I understand JSA fans-who never liked Wonder Woman-liking Hippy because of the JSA association. But as a Wonder Woman fan, I feel mortified. Sixty years of history down the drain. And one of the most important comics creations, and a feminist icon, reduced to a mother-daughter fight over identity. Yuck.
ddf
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I have yet to understand this non sensical idea that Hippolyta being the GA WW somehow "damages" Diana. The JSA had a hole in it a mile wide because of COIE, and Hippolyta filled it masterfully. This was one retcon that not only made sense, it was brilliant. What kind of "damage" is there? How do you quantify it? The simple answer is there isn't damage because it didn't happen. Jay Garrick doesn't "damage" Barry, Wally or Bart. Alan Scott doesn't "damage" Hal, John, Guy or Kyle. All SCU continuity went down the drain after COIE, yet Geoff restored a lot of Diana's after Inifinite Crisis. The mother-daughter fight over identity lasted only one story arc before Polly's death in Our Worlds At War. The real problem was that Hippolyta was eclipsing Diana because she was being written better than Diana. That's why she was killed off. I too am a Wonder Woman fan, having every issue from the WW2 issues featuring Diana Prince Trevor during the 70's up through #329 and every issue of last series and the current. Hippolyta as the Golden Age Wonder Woman works.
 
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