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Old December 3rd, 2005   Ragnell is offline   #1
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Default Who will defend Jade's honor?

It's strange, I actually used to love her when I was a teenager. She had dark hair, and green skin, was dating a superhero, and was the daughter of another superhero. She seemed fun!

After a while of not reading Green Lantern, I read Homecoming? and I ended very angry at the writer. How dare he portray Jade like this! I grumbled, and mumbled, and shelved my thoughts about her well past Rebirth. Outsiders didn't impress me, and she didn't make many appearances otherwise, so she dropped off my RADAR.

Then, while I was reading the Return of Donna Troy mini-series I took a good long look at Jade and decided I didn't really like her that much, at all.

And it wasn't just the way Jiminez wrote her. I looked at my back issues with this character and realized I didn't really like the way Ron Marz wrote her. So, I reread my Judd Winnick issues, and focused on Jenny rather than Kyle. Call me underwhelmed, yet again.

And, while I have nowhere close to the entire run of Infinity Inc, in the issues I do have, she didn't seem the least bit interesting.

In fact, I realized, that I loathe her. I despise her. I would rather see Donna Troy than Jade in a comic book right now, and that's saying a lot. There are fundamental aspects of her concept that I find extremely distatseful, and, from a feminist's point of view, I can make a pretty good case for her death.

So, why bring my revulsion of this "character" to these peaceful Message Boards? Well, I have a very simple request:

I want you to make me like her again.

She's already shown up in Infinite Crisis, and appears likely to be prominently featured there and possibly in the Rann-Thanagar War tie-in special. If, by some freakish malfunction of the writer's logic, she survives -- she'll still be connected heavily to Green Lantern and JSA, two titles that I very much enjoy reading. I would hate for her presence to affect that.

So I figure, there has to be an intelligent Jade fan out there somewhere who can make a good case for her continued existence, and here is probably the best place to ask without it turning into a flame war.

And I'm not asking for "she's a strong woman" or "she's cute" or "she's caring" I need specific character traits supported by actions and words that are written into the DC canon. Why is she fun, why is she good-hearted?

And there is to be No Blaming of The Writer. Of course it's the writer's fault she did something cruel, or came up short in a fight, or said something unbelievably stupid. Without the writer, she would not exist. We're talking about fictional characters here, and what composes their personality is the entirely of what's written. Until such time as an action is retconned away, or revealed as under mind-control, it counts. So no saying "She was a great character until Raab..." Uh-uh. That's cheating. Blaming other characters, however, is acceptable. People do act differently around some people than others.

Specifically, I'm asking:

What does her presence add to the DCU?
What does her presence add to the Green Lantern canon?
What valuable personal qualities does she possess?
Would you be comfortable if your daughter looked up to her?

I understand, this is a tall order, and a long post (in fact, right after this I intend to outline why I dislike her so much, to help you in your arguments). This will not be easy, and I will understand completely if, come next week, I see this post moved to the very last page with 0 replies. She's a difficult one to defend. And I feel its only fair to warn you, I'm a Taurus. That means bullheaded, to you normal folks. I'm particularly resistant to this sort of thing, and a lot of arguments for her may be the same as my personal arguments against her. She may not be worth the headache. But, I'm nothing if not open-minded, or at least extremely fickle, so it could work.

Thank you, and good evening.
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   stumpjs is offline   #2
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Sorry if this reply isnt what you expected. But I really dont know anything about Jade except that shes the daughter of Alan Scott ( I think). But I would like to take a little time to find out more info on the character then get back to you in a few days and um either agree or disagree with you. One thing I would like to say is that im ****ed if i aint impressed with your commitment of disliking this character.Also their are alot of other bad characters out there, why u focusing on her so much.
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   Flying-Grayson is offline   #3
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Sooo.......why exactly do you hate Jade? You never explicitly stated why, and maybe if we know where the hate comes from someone can convince you that the 'bad' is maybe not so bad after all.....just saying...
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   Lundonj is offline   #4
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Yes, fictional character, but it is really tough to get around the fact she betrayed someone she presumably loved.

Six years in the U.S.M.C., the biggest fear away from home was the potential of a significant other giving up on the relationship due to the dreaded "out of sight, out mind" rationale. Kyle just went out of town to do the hero thing, and what she did was pure evil.

So, I can't come up with a defense for that, but her dad sure is cool.

-Don
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   stumpjs is offline   #5
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Alright I looked at some info on wikipedia and the only thing i can say is that she has kind of an unique origin(but then again what comic character doesnt) but there could be some good stories out of her if they ever bring back her mom.Who knows maybe she'll go through some changes, try to rectify past mistakes(sucks what she did to Kyle) my only point is that I personally dont think any character is sooooo bad that you HAVE to kill him/her to make things better (unless its Shift ) or maybe you are like me and you think there are WAY too many GL's running around Earth. In that case I would simply argue that jade is sorta the most unique of the GL6 in that she was born with the powers (also shes a chick) Also from what ive seen almost all of the outsiders characters are pretty weak and self centered (for super heroes anyway) so she fits in perfectly
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   stumpjs is offline   #6
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Oops! I didnt see your post listing why you didnt like Jade. I will try to rebutt(sort of) three of your arguements.First about her being born into royalty, I would argue that while her father is a legendary hero wich might have given her special priveleges her mother is/was a legendary villain. Maybe it could be explored that some people might not look too kindly on someone from that lineage(or both lineages).After all its not always easy living with either of your parents names. Second argument is you mention her getting her butt kicked by Fatality when several GLs (probally more experienced and powerful) actualy got killed by Fatality. Lastly your best argument (for me anyway) is that she has a Paris Hilton type personality. In this case I could only argue that when someone has this type of personality it makes it alot easier for that person to have some interesting conflicts with other characters and that it could be very interesting to see her get brought down to earth/ maybe become a deeper character as she atones for past mistakes
heck maybe even make her MORE of a hateful character before bringing her down to earth could lead to some good stories
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   The Kid Lantern is offline   #7
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Jade was always an alright character with me, but when it came to which lady I liked more in Kyle's life it would have been Donna. Jade had some interesting moments, like when she landed on Kyle's doorstep [or rather in his shower] looking for a place to stay. Later when Kyle fell for her and gave her a ring to be the GL of earth while he left to try and restart the Corps, we got at least a couple good stories with her. The issue where she got the ring was great around the time she knocked Sledge out while he noticed her curves. And the GL 3D Special was also very well done with her and Kyle going inside of his battery to stop Doc Light. Also I thought afterwards the story of how her powers activated in the orphanage was good.

Afterwards her and Kyle had the ups and downs. I felt the character went too far when Jade let Merayn talk her into dating and going out to the clubs while her man was gone. Having the blue alien woman leave John wasn't enough for the earth GL's they had to go and make Jade have problems again too. I wouldn't have been so bitter about the character had Kyle not asked her to marry him. Then there was the whole deal with her being late. Aside from that exit back to earth, I thought the two parter with Jade and Kyle fighting a mad Mogo was a fun read. Also the fill in flashback issue where Jade and Donna teamed up was enjoyable.

Haven't read too much into what Jade has done in Outsiders and Infinity Inc, but if you really wanted to give the character a fair shot at winning you over I'd read the issues between 87 and 95 as well as the GL/Sentinel: Heart of Darkness mini and look for something else in the character. I would have liked to have seen her plant powers develop further past that Secret Files story awhile back too!

I hated the character after what was done after Kyle left for space, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying her time as a friend and ally of Kyle before they got too involved.

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Old December 3rd, 2005   Ragnell is offline   #8
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Default As promised...

(Caution: Unpleasant Thoughts Ahead)

What I Learned From Jade As A Teenaged Girl:

How to Encourage Favortism ("You did not earn your crown, but were born to one renowned")
--Her prominence is tied to her father's identity. Apparently, this makes her a beautiful legacy character. To me, it seems like nepotism. As the daughter of a high-tier superhero from the Golden Age, she doesn't need to earn her place in the DCU. It's there, given to her.
--Up until Kyle (and writers have seriously differing opinions about Kyle's status as worthy), Oan Green Lanterns were chosen according to specific personal standards. You had to be worthy to become one. Jade was given an Oan power ring because she was sleeping with the last Oan Green Lantern.

Live your life for other people. (Perpetual Supporting Character)
---She was introduced as the daughter of a Golden-Age character, along with her twin brother. She then faded to obscurity only to be brought back... As Green Lantern's girlfriend. Her primary importance seems to be through her relationships with men, and how she affects them.

This Green Lantern thing isn't as easy as the boys make it look. (Lesser Lantern)
--She is typically portrayed as less powerful than an Oan Lantern. She is always portrayed as far less powerful than her father.
--She doesn't come across as very competent. As fill-in Green Lantern for Kyle, she spent a lot of time fighting minor villains, which, granted, was fine for Kyle at the fairly early stage in his career, but how many years had Jade been at this? At the end of her first fill-in period, she gets beaten to a bloody pulp by Fatality. Kyle, who at that point has years less experience than Jade, saves her butt, and defeats Fatality. She's had an arguable power-up, but is sitll using the exact same power she was born with -- yet Kyle has to come back to save her butt.
--In Outsiders, as I understand, she has been present every time a team member has been injured. Umm.. Aren't Green Lanterns supposed to put up shields and bubbles and stuff to protect people?
-- Alan crossed the boundaries of reality to return from Limbo in Virtue and Vice, Kyle contained an exploding sun in DC One Million, Hal's defeated Krona personally on two occasions in his own books, Jade has... umm... umm... I'm coming up blank here...

Don't worry about training too hard or even putting up an effort, someobody else can save your worthless butt when you get in over your head. (Damsel in Distress)
--The above about getting her butt saved by Kyle.
--Needed boyfriend to reactivate powers.

Make money off your looks. (Career Choice)
--After being a superhero turns out to be too hard, she tries be a model/actress.
--She follows that up with Photography, not for artistic reasons, but because she already knows the fashion business.

If you smile a lot, you can fool people into thinking you are a nice person (Personality)
-- Attitude not supported by competence
-- Lack of competence, attitude, and method of getting what she wants (Hi, Starman, you don't know me, but can you do me a favor?") implies spoiled brat.
-- Alternates between Mother Hen and Sex Kitten when dealing with her boyfriends.
-- Moody in recent appearances.

Now, any single one of these character traits is not so much a problem. A single trait makes for an interesting concept/flaw/character hook. Many of my favorite characters possess one of the above traits.

My problem is that she has all of them. And she is female. All of them wrapped into one make Jade the combination of several unpleasant female stereotypes, and someone I truly, truly dislike.

Bear in mind, she was the only female Lantern for several years. She didn't make a good showing at all. I know I'm sounding extra feminist here, but look at the bolded lines above and just try to tell me you'd want your daughter learning that. Barbie shouldn't say "Math is hard" and Jade shouldn't be more than a footnote in the Green Lantern archives. She is a disgrace to my gender. She adds nothing of substance to the franchise. She is the Queen Gueneviere of Green Lantern.

And, because of the familial upon which the character was based, as long as she lives, she will be the most prominent female character in the franchise. No matter how many competent females tehy make, Jade will continue to get more attention than them. And so, any other female will be considered "expendable" and likely killed before Jade.

Now, who would you rather have: Katma or Jade? Boodika or Jade? Laira or Jade? Brik or Jade? Ice or Jade?

Therefore, for the good of feminity, she must die, to be replaced in prominence as "the female Green Lantern" by someone who is actually competent and/or admirable. (Having a woman character who is only one is better than having a woman character who is neither.)
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   Ragnell is offline   #9
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stumpjs -- I look forward to it. I'm sure there are worse character, but I can ignore them. Jade's hard to avoid, given how much I like JSA and Green Lantern. Same reason I have problems with Donna Troy, because she interrupts my Wonder Woman reading.


Flying-Grayson -- How's that? I started right after the first post, but it took longer to compile and type than I thought. I had to do some heavy editing.

Lundonj -- I actually, consciously tried to keep the cheating incident out of the post, because so many people hate her for that anyway. But I work with guys that that has happened to, so I tend to empathize with Kyle's side in that mess. Strangely enough, turns out there's plenty of reason to hate her before that.
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   Lundonj is offline   #10
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Lundonj -- I actually, consciously tried to keep the cheating incident out of the post, because so many people hate her for that anyway. But I work with guys that that has happened to, so I tend to empathize with Kyle's side in that mess. Strangely enough, turns out there's plenty of reason to hate her before that.
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True, and when you generate an outline in detail like that, her move to cheat on Kyle...fits her character. When it originally happened, for whatever reason, I thought it a plot device to burn all of Kyle's connections to earth. Now, the incident looks like it belongs in the big picture.

Ah well. Perhaps she is another GL related character that needs to be Spectre for a while and...nah.

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Old December 3rd, 2005   Sk8maven is offline   #11
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"We're fighting for this woman's honor, which is more than she ever did!" -- Groucho Marx
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   Atom is offline   #12
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Liked Jade until she started sleazing around at the end of the last run. Now I could care less about her. She was one of the few reasons I even cared about flipping through Outsiders. After her betrayal, I quit looking. Her whole model thing didn't impress me when it was done. I thought she was just gold-digging for basically no reason.

Sorry I can't help you redeem her, 'cause I feel the same way that you do.
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   curiouswanderer is offline   #13
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An interesting idea for a writer would be to take into consideration Jennie's past. It's worth note that a lot of kids who live in foster homes, orphanages, adopted homes have difficulties forming intimate ties to people. Coming from that background, then having a major super-hero for a dad, a major raging psycho supervillain for a mom, an a brother who's powers drove him crazy...that's got to way on a gal. Be a great character study for a writer to get into.
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   Sk8maven is offline   #14
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An interesting idea for a writer would be to take into consideration Jennie's past. It's worth note that a lot of kids who live in foster homes, orphanages, adopted homes have difficulties forming intimate ties to people. Coming from that background, then having a major super-hero for a dad, a major raging psycho supervillain for a mom, an a brother who's powers drove him crazy...that's got to way on a gal. Be a great character study for a writer to get into.
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Well, you see, this is part of the chronic mishandling of the character. Way back when, she was, as far as she or (almost) anyone else knew, a perfectly normal, ordinary, happy child with nice middle-class parents. And then one day when she was about sixteen, her left hand started glowing and she suddenly turned bright green. That's when her parents admitted that they had adopted her AS AN INFANT. She had NEVER lived in a foster home. She had NEVER lived in an orphanage. She had never even known that she was adopted, or that she had a twin brother (more on that later).

That was all screwed with (and screwed up) for the sake of a couple of bad stories, back in GL #108-109.

She's never been the same after that, partly because all writers since seem to have thought she MUST be as messed-up as her brother - and partly because her adoptive parents and totally "normal" upbringing have never been mentioned again.

That's the REALLY disturbing thing: why would she desert the folks who had raised her, who had been there for her when she cut her first teeth, took her first steps, experienced her first day at school, etc?

I don't think ANYbody knows how to write her and make her believable. Not any more.

Oh, and Ragnell: Jade was NOT "automatically accepted" into the superhero community. She DID have to prove herself (as did the other members of "Infinity Inc."). They did so with flying colors (Infinity Inc. #1-11). But it was all "so long ago" (publication time) that no one remembers it any more (and the Crisis-related reality warpings and memory wipes did nothing to help).

Maven
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   curiouswanderer is offline   #15
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Well, you see, this is part of the chronic mishandling of the character. Way back when, she was, as far as she or (almost) anyone else knew, a perfectly normal, ordinary, happy child with nice middle-class parents. And then one day when she was about sixteen, her left hand started glowing and she suddenly turned bright green. That's when her parents admitted that they had adopted her AS AN INFANT. She had NEVER lived in a foster home. She had NEVER lived in an orphanage. She had never even known that she was adopted, or that she had a twin brother (more on that later).

That was all screwed with (and screwed up) for the sake of a couple of bad stories, back in GL #108-109.

She's never been the same after that, partly because all writers since seem to have thought she MUST be as messed-up as her brother - and partly because her adoptive parents and totally "normal" upbringing have never been mentioned again.

That's the REALLY disturbing thing: why would she desert the folks who had raised her, who had been there for her when she cut her first teeth, took her first steps, experienced her first day at school, etc?

I don't think ANYbody knows how to write her and make her believable. Not any more.

Oh, and Ragnell: Jade was NOT "automatically accepted" into the superhero community. She DID have to prove herself (as did the other members of "Infinity Inc."). They did so with flying colors (Infinity Inc. #1-11). But it was all "so long ago" (publication time) that no one remembers it any more (and the Crisis-related reality warpings and memory wipes did nothing to help).

Maven
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Ah, Maven, you are correct. I thought that I had remembered her being fairly well adjusted and that Todd was the one from the creep-home. I've just become so bogged down with the most recent character history that I had forgotten all that.

Ah, it's time to go back and re-read those old Infinity Inc comics.
 
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Old December 3rd, 2005   Argent is offline   #16
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The sad thing with Jade was in the beginning she was the new kid on the block. A small town girl, from the suburbs of Milwaukee, naive and innocent, age 18. Now she's 25 and, like her name, she is Jaded.

I think far too many writers have made that Jade/Jaded connection with her personality and forgotten that she's got these small town roots. Just like they've forgotten she originally wasn't green all the time, only when she powered up.

My solution, let her find her old Barbie collection and spend some time thinking about who she was and who she is now. Maybe talk to Dr Phil to try and understand why as soon as she thought she was pregnant, she started to distance herself from a man who loved her. Anyone ever think she really was pregnant, got scared at the implications, and used her powers to abort the baby and that is why she left Kyle and eventually found another, sleezier, guy? That she's full of self-loathing which is why she's such an unsavory character?


Since she originally was an Earth-2 character, maybe post Crisis her Earth-2 personality will emerge and she'll remember her adoptive parents.
 
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