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Ragnell July 17th, 2006 12:50 AM

Women in Green Lantern
 
Okay, because of recent events in the main series, I'm going to put a few questions to this board. I'm crossposting them over at the Girl-Wonder Females in Comics Board (which is why some of the obvious questions are there -- its a general board on a feminist site, not a GL specific board) to compare community attitudes. Please note there are no specific questions about writers -- That's because I really don't want to get into a writer bashing thread so let's try and avoid that, everyone?

(Oh, and for the purposes of this questionnaire: Once a Lantern, Always a Lantern.)

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?

2) If no, how would you describe its reputation as relating to women?

3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?

4) If yes, has it ever been to the point that you would drop the book over it?

5) Are you reading now?

6) If yes, is it getting better?

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?

11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.

12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?

13) Why?

Dan Loayza July 17th, 2006 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
(Oh, and for the purposes of this questionnaire: Once a Lantern, Always a Lantern.)

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?

Yup.
Quote:

3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?
No.

Quote:

5) Are you reading now?
Yes.
Quote:

6) If yes, is it getting better?
Yes.
Quote:

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?
Guy Gardner
Quote:

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?
I think she's excellent. One of my favorite non-earth GLs since I started reading the book in the mid-80s.
Quote:

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?
I tend to think marriages are a bad idea between comic characters, as once the writer runs out of ideas it seemingly always devolves into "Gee, we're having marriage problems to keep the story interesting"

For Katma, I don't think it "undermined" her, but I don't think it really added anything either.

Quote:

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?
Hard to say, as most of the ones I like are already back, and I'm not a big fan of resurrecting the dead just cuz. But I did like that russian girl from The New Corps in the late 90s. I think her name was Anya.
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11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.
A silly one. I haven't read all her stories, but in my experience she was written very inconsistantly. Sometimes she was a minor threat, who seemed to be fighting the GLs just for the hell of it (and could easily been swapped with any other villian without really changing the overall story) Other times, she's a psycho-murderess.

Still, the lead character's girlfriend being a major villian was an interesting change over the standard "Hero's love interest gets kidnapped again." style of storytelling.
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12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?
Ice.
Quote:

13) Why?
I assume you don't mean physically strong (though she'd probably take that one too, with her powers). For me, its because she read like a real person. Sure, her relationship with Guy had its ups and downs, but whose doesn't?

Also, she was made a Justice Leaguer of her own accord. She was smart, kinda, and capable. Hell, she was the first one in the JLA to put any real thought into how to fight Doomsday beyond "hit him really hard"

And even if Guy was overprotective, he knew that she could take care of herself. She wasn't there to play damsal in distress every issue.

Lithera July 17th, 2006 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Loayza
Hard to say, as most of the ones I like are already back, and I'm not a big fan of resurrecting the dead just cuz. But I did like that russian girl from The New Corps in the late 90s. I think her name was Anya.

Anya Savenlovich.

Chris D. July 17th, 2006 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
Okay, because of recent events in the main series, I'm going to put a few questions to this board. I'm crossposting them over at the Girl-Wonder Females in Comics Board (which is why some of the obvious questions are there -- its a general board on a feminist site, not a GL specific board) to compare community attitudes. Please note there are no specific questions about writers -- That's because I really don't want to get into a writer bashing thread so let's try and avoid that, everyone?

(Oh, and for the purposes of this questionnaire: Once a Lantern, Always a Lantern.)

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?

I've read a couple of issues



Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?

Absolutely not. From the early days of Carol Ferris who was depicted as a strong, smart, independent woman, and Hal's boss in times when women weren't depicted like that at all to strong females such as Katma, Boddika, Laira to name a few. Rose from the beginning of vol.3 was another strong female character. Even Alex, who people like to whine about was depicted as the mature, strong woman with a head on her shoulders as Kyle was immature. Now Soranik is the new recruit depicted quite well.








Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
6) If yes, is it getting better?

never really was a problem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?

I like them all and it's close, but if push comes to shove I lean towards Kyle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?

I think she's going to be a great character

Quote:

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?
No

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?

Laira was my favorite and it's gonna be intersting to see Boddika w/o a hand and how she deals with Hal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.

Never really liked the character

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?

Carol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
13) Why?

Previously stated

Kris July 17th, 2006 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?

Yes.

2) If no, how would you describe its reputation as relating to women?

Not Applicable

3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?

...I really want to argue this, because it hurts my self-respect.

Yes.

4) If yes, has it ever been to the point that you would drop the book over it?

I'm entertaining the idea right now, if Arisia comes back to life and gets back together with Hal and I'm forced to be confronted every month with a child molester portrayed as a hero.

I don't want to go, so I'm holding on to my rationalizations and hope.

5) Are you reading now?

Yes.

6) If yes, is it getting better?

Yes.

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?

Hal Jordan.

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?

A little dull. A little vague. Don't like her artistic depiction so far. She spends far too much time being a doctor than doing heroic action things, like punching people.

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?

Yes.

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?

Katma, over all.

If we were just talking about the ones Hal took down, Boodikka.

11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.

Extremely confusing. Carol was a victim of enforced possession by females of the Oan race. Her resulting personality was criticized as not being good enough initially, and the same women who claimed she was their new Queen mind controlled her into attacking a man she loved, simply to break her passion for him. Talk about female disempowerment. Originally a strong woman in control of her own company, she was victimized by these radical female terrorists into a criminal who wanted to victimize others (enslave the man she loved, et cetera) and thought of every one but her own race (Zamaron) and gender as inferior (Zamarons treated Korugarian females as slaves too). Your classic abuse victim all grown up to become abuser in turn. We're later told that Zamarons pick all kinds of lookalike women and pit them against each other to get the best Queen.

My comic knowledge doesn't pick up until the Predator era. Star Sapphire has become sadistic and murderous. She wants to enslave or kill the GLs. The Zamarons blithely abandon their 'Queen' for a rapprochement and sex with the Oan males. SS is possessed and impregnated by an Oan demon named Predator. She and he come to an agreement that will empower them both with a body separate from Carol. SS has become contemptuous of the Carol personality and claims to have finally grown enough to be a separate being. With Neron the demon's aid, Carol aborts them. SS is no longer identified with Carol at all at this point. Carol isn't the abuser grown up. She's a rape victim. I found her taking control of her mind/body/soul to kill the invading entities to be extreming satisfying and empowering.

Next version, under Marz: Carol's inner strength has either become dependent on the Star Sapphire personality or she's suffering reaction to years of abuse. She is weak, vacillating, frightened, indecisive. In a confusing scene, it is revealed that the SS persona is growing back again, still in a murderous mood despite no longer being connected to the Predator. The Spectre Hal does *something*..activating the persona but merging/imprisoning it within Carol so that it strengthens her but remains under control. It has yet to be revealed what effect this would have if she were transformed fully into SS again. The theme of abuse is here again, but with the aid of a platonic love (Hal could no longer be a love interest) the abused is empowered by control over her abuser.

As a villainess, Star Sapphire was a bigot who, purely for pleasure and not for any revenge motive (Oan females were NEVER second class citizens), liked to enslave and torture those she saw as inferior. She was quite calculating and devious, using the guilt human males often felt about the commonplace violence of men against women to psych out her opponents. She behaved more like a barbarian warrior queen from a cruel, cold, conquering, ancient society. Every characterization fits someone who would murder Katma Tui offhandedly. It is Carol Ferris who felt prejudiced against as a woman and had compassion for others.

Average Zamarons tend to 'read' as the creation of someone who despised feminists. All DCU Amazon-types seem more often to act like villainesses than simply female warriors.

12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?

Carol Ferris.

13) Why?

She was the boss. She was rich. She had a career before her relationship. She avoided an involvement with her employee. She sought a 'ship with a celebrity who *wasn't* her employee. During the 'ship, her dialogue did not always revolve around what the GL was doing/feeling. She continued to have a life *outside* the GL's desire or control. After the 'ship broke up, she came back as a cast member again and again. She had a successful 'ship with another man and continued to be a nice person.

kalorvoe July 17th, 2006 02:51 AM

What 'recent events in the main series' are you talking about? The fact that a certain back-from-the-dead character now has her costume cleavage plunging to her waist? What's triggered this?

Ragnell July 17th, 2006 04:29 AM

Thanks everyone, keep 'em coming, please :) I'll post a comparison when I get a chance.

I may have to find a neutral board for a third set, since we're all GL fans here. Need the outsiders opinion for #2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalorvoe
What 'recent events in the main series' are you talking about? The fact that a certain back-from-the-dead character now has her costume cleavage plunging to her waist? What's triggered this?

Hehehe, we read that costume differently. I'll have a link for you in a bit explaining how.

Ragnell July 17th, 2006 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalorvoe
The fact that a certain back-from-the-dead character now has her costume cleavage plunging to her waist??

Here's how I saw the costume: GL#12 Spoilers.

Quote:

What's triggered this?
Actually, why are you assuming the reason I did this was that I had a negative reaction? I direct you to Question #6.

Impulse July 17th, 2006 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
Here's how I saw the costume: GL#12 Spoilers.

I'm pretty sure Arisia was 28 on her planet, 14 in Earth years. Her argument for pursuing Hal was that by her planet's customs, she was a legal adult.

Amentep July 17th, 2006 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?

Yes, but admittedly with a caveat; I read the series when I was a kid, in the 70s. And then it was random issues that someone had bought and given to me. I've never really been an active reader of any GL title until this new GLC.

Quote:

2) If no, how would you describe its reputation as relating to women?
I'll go ahead and answer this and you can ignore my views if you want, but I figure its a valid answer since I'm two months into actually following a Green Lantern title.

As near as I can tell, it seems that once Green Lantern hit the 80s and comics began moving past the "simpler" story-telling of the past, that Green Lantern became a horrid place for female characters. I can't think of anyone I knew who read Green Lantern who - when discussing a female character in Green Lantern - had a positive story to tell.

Mind you, it could be just that certain stories gave people the most material to talk about, as well.

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3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?
I'm loathe to say, given that I've just started actually reading the comics, rather than getting the information second-hand about what the stories were like.

Quote:

5) Are you reading now?
I'm reading GLC, just started it and got the TPB of the miniseries in the last month.

Green Lantern itself is still a hard sell to me.

Quote:

6) If yes, is it getting better?
I don't really know?

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7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?
Well of the modern characters I'm a bit undecided. As a kid I always liked
Tomar-Re and Katma Tui. Go figure. :p

Quote:

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?
So far I've found her to be interesting; I hope that they actually settle her uncertanty about being in the GLC; I'd hate to see her trying to quit every other issue a year from now.

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9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?
With the caveat that I never actually read the stories that involved this, I really raised an eyebrow when I heard about this. Particularly in light of my own youthfull (mis)interpretation of a scene from Green Lantern #124, this revelation confused the heck out of me for years about Katma and John both...

While I'm not naturally against characters "hooking up" or getting married, it does seem - and again this is only my interpretation of what I've been told, not actually read, that Katma essentially stopped being a character in her own right, then got killed after marrying John.

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10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?
No opinion really on this...?

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11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.
Dunno...I know that I've read some stories with her as Star Sapphire, but all I really remember was thinking she was possessed by an evil force and became evil. So I don't think I as a kid ever really saw her as a villainess per se, but more of a person being used by an external force against her will.

Obviously I'm not the person to be answering GL questions! (and yet here I am!)

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12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?
Well the one I've ended up reading the most of is probably Guy, at least of modern comics, because of JLI, and I really liked the romance he had with Ice going on (until her stupid death).

Quote:

13) Why?
Because it was kinda fun. Guy acted like a creep and occassional letch, Ice was determined to find the real Guy beneath the facade. There was a tension there that was interesting; was Guy the macho-creep going to end up breaking the heart of Ice? Or was Guy's macho-creepness an act like Ice thought and would she be able to get to the real person underneath the tough guy act?

k26dp July 17th, 2006 10:36 AM

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?
Yes.

2) If no, how would you describe its reputation as relating to women?
Mixed, at best.

3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?
I don't believe a "franchise" can be misogynystic. People can be, but I don't like to toss labels onto people that I haven't met. All that said, female characters in Green Lantern have had very uneven treatment by several writers.

4) If yes, has it ever been to the point that you would drop the book over it?
Not yet.

5) Are you reading now?
Yes.

6) If yes, is it getting better?
In it's treatment of women? "Wait and see".

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?
Blasphemy I know, but I don't have a favorite. I just want to see them all well-written with interesting stories.

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?
I like her so far. Hope she isn't dead.

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?
Yes.

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?
Katma.

11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.
Under a good writer? Remarkably nuanced and powerful.

12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?
Guy and Tara.

13) Why?
It was so improbable, but Giffen and DeMattais made it feel natural.

Sk8maven July 17th, 2006 11:18 AM

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?

Oh yes. Started with Showcase #22 and kept going until somewhere around Crisis - after which reading has been extremely spotty. Have also caught up with some of the Golden Age stories via reprints, Archives, etc.

2) If no, how would you describe its reputation as relating to women?

N/A

3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?

For starters, let's distinguish between "misogynistic" (hatred/fear of women) and "sexist" (women as inferior). They blur into each other but aren't the same thing.

Interestingly, the period you'd expect to be the most sexist (the Golden Age) wasn't particularly. GL's first known love interest (Irene Miller) was a career woman with a mind of her own - it's never been explicitly stated what happened to them, but it was implied once (and I suspected even before then) that their careers went in different directions and the relationship just (very realistically!) faded with distance and time. His second (Molly Maynne aka Harlequin) was fully his equal in every way. "Damsels in jep" were a standard feature, but were generally treated as full characters in their own right and not just as objects for the hero or someone else to angst over.

The Silver Age was frightfully sexist, partly because so much of the concept had its roots in the totally sexist Lensman series (only males could be LensMEN - with a couple of "freak" exceptions at the very end of their development). Partly, too, because the 1950's and early 1960's were sexist all around for everybody - and nobody realized it until Betty Friedan took to her typewriter.

Things didn't get outright misogynistic until DC started wantonly killing off characters for shock value - and because killing women has the "highest" shock value, far too many of the sacrificial victims have been women.

4) If yes, has it ever been to the point that you would drop the book over it?

I wasn't thinking about it in those terms, back when I was reading regularly. I just felt that the DC universe, as a whole, wasn't a place I wanted to spend much time in any longer.

5) Are you reading now?

No. My interest has been totally killed. I don't want to spend ANY time in the cosmic cesspool the DCU has become.

6) If yes, is it getting better?

You kidding??? :D

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?

Alan Scott, hands down. Wish DC would stop mistreating him - Golden Agers seem to be just behind female characters as punching bags (and as for female Golden Agers, don't get me started....).

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?

Not familiar with her.

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?

Not necessarily - but her relegation to "extension of John Stewart" certainly did, and her brutal execution just to cause him angst was the dead end of that road.

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?

Jade. (I'm not sure she counts, but she's the one female GL character who was most thoroughly shafted.)

11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.

Started out as a "camp" satire on feminists, ended up as psycho-b!tch. NEVER well-written, by ANYONE.

12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?

Molly Maynne-Scott. ;)

13) Why?

Whenever she gets more than a passing one-panel cameo, she starts stealing scenes. She's got a very strong personality and it usually shows. The dumbest thing Alan ever did was turn her down originally - and the smartest thing he ever did was (finally!) ask her to marry him.

Maven

TJLamb0518 July 17th, 2006 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell

(Oh, and for the purposes of this questionnaire: Once a Lantern, Always a Lantern.)

1) Have you ever read Green Lantern?

Yes
Quote:


3) If yes, has Green Lantern, as a franchise, been misogynystic?
No
Quote:

5) Are you reading now?
No

Quote:

7) Which Green Lantern, either gender, is your favorite?
Assuming we're talking Green Lantern Corps, either John Stewart or Tomar Re. Green Lanterns over all, Alan Scott.

Quote:

8) What do you think of Dr. Soranik Natu as a character?
I'm guessing she's a female Lantern?


Quote:

9) Do you think Katma Tui's marriage to John Stewart undermined her character?
No, it afforded her more panel time allowing for more growth than just being the once in awhile guest star


Quote:

10) Which female "Lost Lantern" do you want back the most?
Ch'p, Superboy Punched into being a Ch'pette


Quote:

11) Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire. Describe what type of villainess she was.
A very typical Silver Age creation.


Quote:

12) Who has been the strongest GL (any of the 5 Earthmen, any book they appeared in) love interest?
Gotta go with Jade.

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13) Why?

She wasn' just a girlfriend. She was a fully fleshed out character who at times was better than her male counterpart.

Chris D. July 17th, 2006 12:21 PM

in all honesty let's look at all the GL's and how they were treated, bc this sexist stuff really get's ridiculous after awhile......

1) Alan- Original GL....replaced by the Corps concept. Brought back to eventuallybe taken out first in just about every JSA battle. Currently has lost BOTH his eyes.

2) Hal- used as a foil for Ollie's social commentary. Went from test pilot to insurance salesman to truck driver to drunk driver to the angst older greying hero to hero that completely cracked and turns on everyone to Parallax, a poor man's Magneto. Killed then to a horid Spectre. Gone as GL for a DECADE. Recently brought back

3) John- Personally responsible for making a mistake which caused the destruction of a whole planet. Manipulated and possessed by Sinestro. Lost power ring. Lost use of legs. Now just lost in the shuffle

4)Guy Gardner- Chosen as just s good as Hal but father away, became a brain damaged punk used as a foill for everyone to beat up, even Ted Kord. His whole character became a joke and to make others look good. Lost ring, got ring, lost ring got weird powers, got killed. Recently back and matured by some writers

4) Kyle- satrted out as immature kid. Not as mature as his girlfirend.Kept being an unsure "rookie" a few years too long. Stripped of GL name and pushed aside a little for Hal's return.

5) Kilowog- Fried by Hal

6) Ch'ip- Run over by a truck

7) Tomar Re- KIA


etc, etc,etc,

Ragnell July 17th, 2006 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris D.
in all honesty let's look at all the GL's and how they were treated, bc this sexist stuff really get's ridiculous after awhile......

1) Alan- Original GL....replaced by the Corps concept. Brought back to eventuallybe taken out first in just about every JSA battle. Currently has lost BOTH his eyes.

2) Hal- used as a foil for Ollie's social commentary. Went from test pilot to insurance salesman to truck driver to drunk driver to the angst older greying hero to hero that completely cracked and turns on everyone to Parallax, a poor man's Magneto. Killed then to a horid Spectre. Gone as GL for a DECADE. Recently brought back

3) John- Personally responsible for making a mistake which caused the destruction of a whole planet. Manipulated and possessed by Sinestro. Lost power ring. Lost use of legs. Now just lost in the shuffle

4)Guy Gardner- Chosen as just s good as Hal but father away, became a brain damaged punk used as a foill for everyone to beat up, even Ted Kord. His whole character became a joke and to make others look good. Lost ring, got ring, lost ring got weird powers, got killed. Recently back and matured by some writers

4) Kyle- satrted out as immature kid. Not as mature as his girlfirend.Kept being an unsure "rookie" a few years too long. Stripped of GL name and pushed aside a little for Hal's return.

5) Kilowog- Fried by Hal

6) Ch'ip- Run over by a truck

7) Tomar Re- KIA


etc, etc,etc,

Chris man, I'm just trying to see if Soranik and GL12 has made anyone change their minds about how they view GL, let's not get into this men are treated worse than women argument here because that always turns ugly.

Chris D. July 17th, 2006 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnell
Chris man, I'm just trying to see if Soranik and GL12 has made anyone change their minds about how they view GL, let's not get into this men are treated worse than women argument here because that always turns ugly.


I don't recall stating men were treated WORSE. Just if you objectively look at ALL the characters through the years, you see that every single one has gone through some crazy stuff. To claim (and you never did) that the book has been and is "sexist" and "misogynistic" is just way off base when it always has had a large # of strong and interetsing female characters.


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