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-   -   The Miller Influence of Batman (http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15777)

CapeandCowl December 12th, 2005 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying-Grayson
I also think this is a great post.
However, I also wonder if a 'huge impact' is really necessary. We've moved beyond the campiness, and it looks like post-Crisis, Batman will be changing slightly so that he isn't so 'dark'.
Other than those two interpretations, what other direction could Batman be taken in without totally deviating from the formula that has made him one of the most iconic and popular fictional characters in pop culture?

I think he should just be written more like Loeb's Batman from the 'Long Halloween' series and also to a lesser extent, 'Hush' Batman, as C&C mentioned. Those particular depictions of Batman are, in my mind, the way Batman should always be. He still has the almost single-minded approach to fighting crime, yet at the same time, he still trusts those close to him, and even takes chances with personal relationships(such as with Catwoman). He doesn't push away the people who want to help him.
I realise that with everything that happened to him since Identity Crisis(mind-wipes, Red Hood, OMACs, etc) he might not be in the mood for friendship or people in general, but hopefully this Crisis will make him a slightly happier fellow.


I don't know if "happy" is necessarily the thing, but maybe a little less edgy maybe? Its hard to imagine a really "happy" Bruce Wayne.

In either case, if DC plans to change Batman to, say, make him more trusting and less paranoid for example, you need a pretty compelling story to do it. Some posters complain that attempts to make Batman more accepting of his "bat family" or smooth things out with Dick never last. The reason, I would say, is that the stories never really go deep enough into the character for it to work, and for it to really establish something new for Batman. Hush, which is a great story, leaves Batman as he started - too distrustful to accept Catwoman on face value. He is too suspicious that she might have been involved with the whole plot to get him. To move Batman beyond that kind of reaction 100 per cent of the time, you need a story that can put him through the ringer, where things get SO bad that he is forced to re-evaluate his behaviors and attitudes. Given what he is, its unlikely that a total sea change would happen. But if the story is done right, then a Batman with some of the edge taken off his paranoia would make sense and probably stick.

Maybe IC will be that story, maybe not.

Mark Matthewman December 12th, 2005 11:00 AM

The thing is though, allmost every recent story told, no matter what the purpose, has simply reinforced the idea that Batman isn't paranoid, he simply reacting to the world he lives in.
Think about it.

CapeandCowl December 12th, 2005 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Matthewman
The thing is though, allmost every recent story told, no matter what the purpose, has simply reinforced the idea that Batman isn't paranoid, he simply reacting to the world he lives in.
Think about it.


No, I agree with you. Personally, I have zero problem with the way Batman is written today (although he is tad paranoid. Not pathological so, as some suggest. But a bit. I mean, Superman sees the same problems with the JLA that Batman does, but doesn't create hit files for them.) All I am saying is that if DC wants Batman to move in some different direction, for it to ring true for readers and writers alike, you need on heck of story to do it.

Attempts like JLA Soul War to make Batman "nice" just fall on their faces because the level of contrivence is extreme.

Ray Scott December 12th, 2005 12:07 PM

I dont see Batman as nice or evil. I see him as distant on purpose, he isnt paranoid or mean as much as he had shut himself off from the world to avoid him getting hurt emotionally. So in his mind he is just protecting himself emtionally, while others percieve that coldness as not caring or being mean.

CapeandCowl December 12th, 2005 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Scott
I dont see Batman as nice or evil. I see him as distant on purpose, he isnt paranoid or mean as much as he had shut himself off from the world to avoid him getting hurt emotionally. So in his mind he is just protecting himself emtionally, while others percieve that coldness as not caring or being mean.

well said.

Can1 December 12th, 2005 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Scott
I dont see Batman as nice or evil. I see him as distant on purpose, he isnt paranoid or mean as much as he had shut himself off from the world to avoid him getting hurt emotionally. So in his mind he is just protecting himself emtionally, while others percieve that coldness as not caring or being mean.


but of course to disagree with this thought makes one bitter .. or so I am told

my difficulty with the way some writers have moved on frm Miller's Year One .. is that all Batman seems to be is confrontational ... it seems to go way beyond keeping himself shut off emotionally ... he seems perpetually angry .. even towards the very people he is trying to protect .. the only way some writers seem to be able to portray the need you discribe is to have him be forever combative ... and personally I think there are many ways to show how Batman is by nature an emotionally distant and mentally intense character without having him appears as always be picking a fight .. shoot they wrote better disposal Vulcans on Star Trek that simililar characteristics but were far more entertaining to watch

but hey just my opinion

CapeandCowl December 12th, 2005 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Scott
The problem isnt with DKR or Miller(though there is a problem with current Miller ;) ) the problem is too many writers trying to ape Miller. This goes for ALL Characters with famous runs, too often the talent following them, feels they have to try and write like Miller cause fans love that story. Instead they should follow their own voice, and while sticking with the current tone of the book, write "their" Batman.


But to be fair to writers inspired by Miller, Miller's work with Year One and DKR are really touchstones in terms of modern Batman mythology that, in many ways, trumped what came before it. I mean, yes, several writers have done Batman's origin, some did it really well, but when the makers of Batman Begins went to look to an origin story where did they turn? Year One.

The stories were just that good, and I am sure, as these things are bound to go, alot of people read Year One and DKR and must have said "why didn't I think of that."

If you have never seen it, check out Ken Burns' Jazz series. There is a bit in there about the horn players around when Charlie Parker made it big. These guys gave up even the pretense of trying to create their own sound and just wanted to sound like Parker - which in a way is the exact opposite of creating anything, but they were so inspired and blown away by Park they wanted to be like him, to play like him.

I've been boxing most of my life and you even today still see fighters trying to be Muhammad Ali. Most trying to do get murdered in the ring, but they don't want fight like themselves. They want the Ali magic.

The same with writers in any genre. They get inspired by someone and really want to be as good them and end up imitiating them. Clearly this has happened with Miller, but that doesn't make post Miller writers bad. It just means that none of them have ever taken the risk to try and define the character for themselves.

But honestly, how many writers actually accomplish something of the magnitude of DKR? Not bloody many. I mean, yeah, there are heaps of good comics writers, but not many that make the rest stop and go "that is what a comics story should be."


I actually think All Star Batman and Robin might be the place where a writer can redefine Batman without the globely gook of continuity....but it likely won't be Miller's current run. (which I really like by the by) This is the same Batman Miller wrote in Year One and DKR. I really like All Star so far because I like Miller's stuff. But we've already had this Batman before. So no matter how good the story is, its Miller's Batman, in the same world as Year One and DKR.

I think the only way we will get another Bat story of the scope and impact and DKR will be when a writer come forward and says there are no holy grails and does something unexpected.

Black Diamondback December 12th, 2005 07:00 PM

i don't mind the current costume. robin however should not be bright colors.

TJLamb0518 December 12th, 2005 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Diamondback
i don't mind the current costume. robin however should not be bright colors.

True. Traditionally, Robin has worn black and navy blue without a hint of bright primary colors...


Oh, wait.....

avathar476 December 12th, 2005 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Diamondback
i don't mind the current costume. robin however should not be bright colors.

I like the latest redesign.

Can1 December 12th, 2005 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJLamb0518
True. Traditionally, Robin has worn black and navy blue without a hint of bright primary colors...


Oh, wait.....

see ... you keep forgetting .. nothing but the last decade or so is the actual history .. retconned history is now our reality .. so Robin wearing primary colors .. or Robin being derived from Robin Hood .. not in this reality

CapeandCowl December 12th, 2005 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Diamondback
i don't mind the current costume. robin however should not be bright colors.

well the red body suit is bright, but no more brighter than it was before. And while the cape is green, its still a very deep emerald kinda green...most black with green highlights.

avathar476 December 18th, 2005 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeandCowl
well the red body suit is bright, but no more brighter than it was before. And while the cape is green, its still a very deep emerald kinda green...most black with green highlights.

Exactly.

Yestin December 18th, 2005 10:00 PM

Personally I think that Batman needs renewed focus. I really liked No Mans Land but obviously we can't do that again :) The simplest way to do this would be to do a rewrite/mindwipe like they seem to be doing with Superman: Birthright. Our current Batman seems like he has been through it all. If the rumors of a Bruce Wayne-less year are true, I hope when he comes back the backstory will be simplified, maybe the same way Zero-Hour changed a few details of the past but left it mostly the same. Post-IC they could just compress all the pas 20 years of Batman comics into a 5 year timeline including all the major storylines that the Batman editorial wants to keep around. For example Year One, NML, Fugitive, Hush. This would give a similar situation as the post-Crisis1 Batman, where 90% of the previous stories are out of continuity until a writer decides to re-plant them.

Batman Begins could also be included as a replacement/addition to Year One.

Elias December 4th, 2014 02:41 AM

The Dark Knight Returns Part 3
 
Frank Miller And Scott Snyder Planning To Write Dark Knight 3 Together
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Johnston
The story, I am told, would concern Carrie Kelley, the Robin of Dark Knight, now in her elder years. She is now in a similar position to that of Bruce Wayne in the original Dark Knight, and she is seeking her own successor to protect Gotham.


Elias December 4th, 2014 05:06 PM

The Dark Knight Returns Part 3
 
Brian Azzarello, John Romita Jr, Dave Gibbons And Klaus Janson Also Named On Dark Knight Three Project


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