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-   -   The Miller Influence of Batman (http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15777)

Dr.Strangefate December 4th, 2005 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rex
Year one is in my opinion the greatest Batman story ever. Period. Thats how Batman is supposed to be.

That's interesting, because Bruce isn't really the main character in there... it's Gordon.

syko60 December 4th, 2005 08:39 PM

Miller's batman is a batman at least fifteen years younger then the current batman. He's arrogant, full of himself, and young. He hasn't lost any comrades, there's been no Jason, Stephanie, Bane, etc. so he's bought into his own hype and believed that he's above the law. When he comes down it'll be a massive blow to him.
Although the Last All Star Batman and Robin went too far I'm still a miller fan and like his noir, pulp style stories.

CapeandCowl December 4th, 2005 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syko60
Miller's batman is a batman at least fifteen years younger then the current batman. He's arrogant, full of himself, and young. He hasn't lost any comrades, there's been no Jason, Stephanie, Bane, etc. so he's bought into his own hype and believed that he's above the law. When he comes down it'll be a massive blow to him.
Although the Last All Star Batman and Robin went too far I'm still a miller fan and like his noir, pulp style stories.

Dude, outside of silver age camp, and Earth 2 stuff (which is pretty much silver age camp) where Batman becomes part of the sytem either as police comission or a duley designated deputy of the law, every verison of Batman sees himself above the law. He is an outlaw after all.

syko60 December 4th, 2005 08:45 PM

For a long time he worked side by side with Jim Gordon, who led the police, so he was more like a UC then an outlaw, now he's an outlaw again.
At least that's my opinion.

bat_610 December 4th, 2005 09:16 PM

first of all, trespasser i'm 14 and I appreciate DKR alot. I had to do a history fair project on DC Comics last year. When I was doing the report I read some earlier batman stuff like batman in the 60's and 70's. In the sixties batman was a joke. You can see why people thought he was a homo. In the 70's with the O'Neil and Adams stuff you can see batman become the badass character he is today. O'Neil's batman just needed a tiny kick in the as s to get to where he is today. DKR was the kick in the as s. And since DKR indirectly led to B:TAS I love it even more as I grew up with that
show.

CapeandCowl December 4th, 2005 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bat_610
first of all, trespasser i'm 14 and I appreciate DKR alot. I had to do a history fair project on DC Comics last year. When I was doing the report I read some earlier batman stuff like batman in the 60's and 70's. In the sixties batman was a joke. You can see why people thought he was a homo. In the 70's with the O'Neil and Adams stuff you can see batman become the badass character he is today. O'Neil's batman just needed a tiny kick in the as s to get to where he is today. DKR was the kick in the as s. And since DKR indirectly led to B:TAS I love it even more as I grew up with that
show.

Did you ever catch the TAS show that did "legends of the dark knight" thing where they did the DKR battle between the mutants and Batman?

Trespasser December 4th, 2005 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bat_610
first of all, trespasser i'm 14 and I appreciate DKR alot. I had to do a history fair project on DC Comics last year. When I was doing the report I read some earlier batman stuff like batman in the 60's and 70's. In the sixties batman was a joke. You can see why people thought he was a homo. In the 70's with the O'Neil and Adams stuff you can see batman become the badass character he is today. O'Neil's batman just needed a tiny kick in the as s to get to where he is today. DKR was the kick in the as s. And since DKR indirectly led to B:TAS I love it even more as I grew up with that
show.

As I said, it's not an insult or insinuation of any kind, you and Inferno simply weren't there. And while I'm sure you can appreciate it, you just cannot understand what it was like or how much it changed everything about comics at the time. It was the beginning of multiple printed books and, later, collected graphic novels. It paved the way.

I made my mom look for a shop in Dallas while she was on a trip with my dad to find it because there was no internet, there were no comic shops to speak of.

And, yes, you can go back a read the old stuff and compare it to DKR and todays DKR influenced version. But you'll never have that feeling of, "Holy Crap! What is this?!!" when it was first thrust upon us because it was so radical and different of an interpretation at that time. The influences are so far reaching now that it would be impossible.

Again, no offense to anyone.

rex December 4th, 2005 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Strangefate
That's interesting, because Bruce isn't really the main character in there... it's Gordon.


Thats one of the reasons its so great.

Matches December 5th, 2005 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernorhythm
I don't see how it was groundbreaking. So he was a bit more violent and less creepy. Yeah, so? Nothing overly interesting.

Respectfully, if that's all you got out of it, you missed the point of the story.

DKR is about Batman coming full circle and re-discovering who he is. It's about him realizing that he has become part of the establishment that has no place for him. It's about him re-inventing himself as an anti-establishment figure, much like he was at the beginning of his career. It's a fundamental change in his mindset that goes *way* beyond how hard he hits people.

And again, not to pick on your age, frankly we need *more* young fans in this industry, but it's really hard to assess whether something was groundbreaking if you read it *after* twenty years of (mostly bad) attempts to imitate it. Of course it's not going to seem groundbreaking if you've read fifteen years of stories that attempt to be just like it.

CapeandCowl December 5th, 2005 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matches M. Malone
Respectfully, if that's all you got out of it, you missed the point of the story.

DKR is about Batman coming full circle and re-discovering who he is. It's about him realizing that he has become part of the establishment that has no place for him. It's about him re-inventing himself as an anti-establishment figure, much like he was at the beginning of his career. It's a fundamental change in his mindset that goes *way* beyond how hard he hits people.

And again, not to pick on your age, frankly we need *more* young fans in this industry, but it's really hard to assess whether something was groundbreaking if you read it *after* twenty years of (mostly bad) attempts to imitate it. Of course it's not going to seem groundbreaking if you've read fifteen years of stories that attempt to be just like it.

Yeah, although even today if you approach DKR with an open mind it's still freakin amazing. But it's only natural that it does not seem so revolutionary now decades after the fact which, as you say, filled with less successful attempts to ape Miller's work.

Sometimes I think we need another writer to set the tone for Batman for the next decade they way Miller did. I love DKR and I am really digging All Star B&R, but that is Miller exploring his verison of Batman.

I know Waid et al are saying they are going to "fix" Batman (which I think is either a poor choice of words, or a misguided attempt to fix what ain't broke) but without another work of the influence of DKR, I doubt it will stick.

DKR and Year One created a vision of Batman that is very compelling to both readers and writers. Even in a story like Hush - which take a more common place view of Batman as crimefighter - you can feel Miller's influence.

So any effort to make Batman "nicer" I don't think will really work because while the current crop of DC writers are often criticized for be silver age groupies, they are all of the generation of writers who were heavily influenced by Miller.

You know, I think this is why stories like JLA: Soul War - where Batman has a sudden epiphany and wants to go help his buddy Hal Jordan - rang so false with readers. That isn't Batman. (Interestingly, Johns Batman in Rebirth explored the same terrority. There Bats was willing to let his issues with Hal drop for the time being. But the tension remained and so made complete sense to readers.) Englenhart's Dark Dective sequel got only a luke warm reception, in part I think because the idea of a Batman who operates in day time and gets the key to the city, etc, doesn't ring true with readers.

Miller's influence is so prevasive that attempts to make Batman "nicer" often don't stick despite attempts to send him in a new direction at the end of Knightfall, No Man's Land and Fugative. Interestingly, the direction taken after War Crime works - but it is simply another variasion of the Miller influnced take on the character.

Anyway, this is a really jumbled way of saying that the influence of DKR and Year One is so prevasive that it is going to another writer to create as compelling a vision of Batman as Miller did. Until that happens, whatever changes to the character DC makes won't stick.

capatom December 5th, 2005 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superman1984
I have been wanting a Batman more like the 70's version for a long time...I am sure I will get flamed for agreeing with you...keeping in mind I did really like Year One....the other stuff....was ok...

Maybe OYL you'll get your wish....?

superman1984 December 5th, 2005 12:07 PM

its possible....but don't get me wrong, I dont want a total copy of Batman from the 70's...I just think Batman has got to be less of a jerk...he was dark before....to be a dark character you don't have to be a jerk to your "loved ones" ... He was dark in the past without being a total jerk that he comes across as these days...

capatom December 5th, 2005 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superman1984
its possible....but don't get me wrong, I dont want a total copy of Batman from the 70's...I just think Batman has got to be less of a jerk...he was dark before....to be a dark character you don't have to be a jerk to your "loved ones" ... He was dark in the past without being a total jerk that he comes across as these days...

I think maybe it'll head back into this spiritual direction.

A less obsessive Batman, one that values his friends, family and colleagues again.

One who is equally adept at handling detective problems, high adventure and gritty crime; wrapped up in an urban gothic feel.

So, no, not back to the 1970s. Something new.

And longer ears.... ;)

magicspoon December 5th, 2005 05:08 PM

His ears sort of greatly fluctuate depending on the time period he's in.

thunderdude December 5th, 2005 06:16 PM

Trespasser's right, but I'd like to add something. DKR saved Batman. I know a lot of you may not realize this, but there was a time when he wasn't selling largely because Marvel was outselling DC by a lot. and I doubt there would have been any movies or BTAS. I really think it's a better experience if you read it with YEAR ONE though. Miller does have a lot of clones, but nothing beats him at the top of his game.

danielsummers December 5th, 2005 08:08 PM

I'm 20, and I heart DKR. I'm also a creative writing major at a liberal school. So I guess I'm a nerd...


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