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-   -   Whatever happened to the books Geoff's left? (http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66192)

Patrick November 24th, 2008 06:48 AM

Whatever happened to the books Geoff's left?
 
We all know the impressive work Geoff does for DC. Personally, I read everything he writes for the DCU, one way or the other. He is known for "fixing" character histories, makes the bad guys bad and interesting and brings that blockbuster feel to his titles. Of course, he is not the only great writer DC has right now and there are more titles out there than Geoff is able to write on a monthly basis. So sometimes, he leaves a title... and that's where the problems begin.

Mind you, this is a subjective opinion of a single reader and nothing that claims to be universally valid. But I would really like to get some more opinions from you guys.

Hawkman
The Hawkman title spun out of the pages of JSA and I loved the first 25 issues of it. Then Geoff left and Palmiotti and Gray took over and while Hawkman was still not bad, it wasn't as exiting as it was before. I stopped reading the title with #50, the first issue OYL and the first issue of Simonson, which I didn't like. It was cancelled with #66.

The Flash
Geoff concluded his 62-issue run with #225 and DC decided to give it another 5 issues before cancelling it. The two following restarts (the first by Bilson & Demeo, the second by Waid) both weren't nearly as good or popular as Geoff's run, and Burnett is now apparently bringing it to a close, so Geoff can take over again next year.

JSA
The finale of JSA was written by Paul Levitz, which I think was very boring. The title was cancelled then and restarted by Geoff as JSoA.

Teen Titans
Geoff's final storyline was co-written with Adam Beechen and after that McKeever took over and is still writing the Teen Titans. I stopped readinf the title with issue #54, McKeever's fifth issue and the finale of his 'Titans of tomorrow' storyline, because it was too chaotic for my taste and the lineup just wasn't the same anymore with the characters I liked gone.

Booster Gold
I stopped reading it with issue 1000000, but I may pick up the Jurgens issues starting December. It's wait and see on this one.

All in all, I think DC has a problem here. Geoff does all this great work, but there's no one there to pick up on the things he established (except for himself). Why is that???

oddballuk November 24th, 2008 07:17 AM

Honestly, I don't feel there is any good reason for why a book can't continue to be successful after Geoff has left. That some do suffer feels to have a lot to do with DC not having adequate plans to follow Geoff.

My opinions on the titles listed, post-Geoff, are as follows:


Hawkman:
Was still very good after Geoff left and Jimmy & Justin took over. The sales even began to rise a bit towards issue #50 but then Jimmy & Justin were replaced by Simonson & Chaykin and the book renamed Hawkgirl and their run was so poorly recieved it led to the book getting cancelled.

The Flash:
A pretty poor 'filler' arc followed Geoff's run prior to the book being cancelled and relaunched post-IC. The relaunch was a mess and despite good intentions in some places (bringing back Waid) and stupid mistakes in others (killing Bart Allen), the book has struggled since. Flash: Rebirth will hopefully repair the damage done.

Teen Titans:
I read this under Geoff's tenure but it was his weakest book in my opinion. Some good stories and ideas but an overly 'emo' attitude from its cast in my opinion. I stuck around a while for McKeever's run but the book has gotten increasingly depressing for me to read. I dropped the book many months ago.

JSA:
I tend to consider that Levitz arc as just a temporary fill in. It didn't really add anything and since Geoff came back with the relaunch it is like he never truly left the book to begin with. The new series is still good, though lacks some of excitement of the previous run (the cast, while very likeable, is also way too big).

Booster Gold:
We've yet to really see if Geoff leaving will affect this book. The sales drop following Geoff's departure is actually fairly small. I have liked the Dixon and Remender issues and am just as excited for Jurgens' run to begin as I was for Geoff's (Jurgens created Booster afterall!).

Sentinel119 November 24th, 2008 08:43 AM

I don't think that Booster really suffered from Geoff leaving. He is in the very capable hands of Dan Jurgens. Teen Titans just took a while for the writer(s) to find their footing. It seemed like they wanted to tie the book into Amazons Attack too much. Since the Terror Titans arrived things have gotten a lot better. The current arc with Ares's son battling Wondergirl is great.

Dan Loayza November 28th, 2008 12:44 AM

Hawkman:
After that god awful fill in by John Byrne, Palmiotti and Gray took over. Frankly, their run was better then Geoff's. Then the Simonson stuff happened and it all went to Hell.


Teen Titans:
Beechen stuff was horrendous, and McKeever was not much better. The big problem was that we went from the Titans East story, to Titans Tomorrow stuff (with some really bad crossover stuff in between), to Terror Titans. So, Evil Titans, to Evil Titans, to Evil Titans. Yawn. I dropped the book with few regrets.

Booster Gold:
IMO, the title has not suffered any negative effects from Johns & Katz leaving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick (Post 1354948)
The finale of JSA was written by Paul Levitz, which I think was very boring.

I tend to agree with this. My big problem was that the Gentleman Ghost stuff conflicted with what Geoff had done in Hawkman not long before, and there seemed to be no real reason/need for the change.


Quote:

Originally Posted by oddballuk
The Flash:
A pretty poor 'filler' arc followed Geoff's run prior to the book being cancelled and relaunched post-IC. The relaunch was a mess and despite good intentions in some places (bringing back Waid) and stupid mistakes in others (killing Bart Allen), the book has struggled since. Flash: Rebirth will hopefully repair the damage done.

Yeah, pretty much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oddballuk
JSA:
I tend to consider that Levitz arc as just a temporary fill in. It didn't really add anything and since Geoff came back with the relaunch it is like he never truly left the book to begin with. The new series is still good, though lacks some of excitement of the previous run (the cast, while very likeable, is also way too big).

I feel the same, with the addendum that hopefully things will get back on track once the way, way too long Gog arc is over.

therealssjlink November 28th, 2008 03:28 AM

I love Teen Titans, and if you were to ask anyone that was against Mckeever before, they are all coming around now (since explanations have been given for the way characters have been acting and such; we're getting a permanent team in Marc).

I believe Geoff's run was sorta weak, but it was better than the Titans from the 90s.

My main issue with Geoff (since he's extremely good, this may be minor) is that he takes too much influence from the DCAU characters.

2 examples:

Raven: He brought her back to life with a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT personality that just so happened to be like the cartoon character. Also, two characters that had very minor interactions before (Raven and Beastboy) that were featured prominently in the cartoon, happened to fall in love.

John Stewart: He is now almost exactly like the DCAU character. His "marine" background (which seems to have been added) is talked about a lot and was shown to have gotten into a fight in Secret Origins with Hal because he was from the Marines and Hal was from the Air Force.

Other than that, though, I do wonder why people read his runs if they had no prior interest in the characters before reading. You can't just be reading a series because of the writer. If you do, you'll find out you really don't like the series as much as you thought you did, you just liked the writer.

Also, Flash wasn't canceled because of Geoff's departure. It was all editorial (to make Bart the Flash).

SageShinigami November 28th, 2008 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealssjlink (Post 1357171)
I love Teen Titans, and if you were to ask anyone that was against Mckeever before, they are all coming around now (since explanations have been given for the way characters have been acting and such; we're getting a permanent team in Marc).

I believe Geoff's run was sorta weak, but it was better than the Titans from the 90s.

My main issue with Geoff (since he's extremely good, this may be minor) is that he takes too much influence from the DCAU characters.

2 examples:

Raven: He brought her back to life with a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT personality that just so happened to be like the cartoon character. Also, two characters that had very minor interactions before (Raven and Beastboy) that were featured prominently in the cartoon, happened to fall in love.

John Stewart: He is now almost exactly like the DCAU character. His "marine" background (which seems to have been added) is talked about a lot and was shown to have gotten into a fight in Secret Origins with Hal because he was from the Marines and Hal was from the Air Force.

Well, its my belief that Teen Titans was only brought about in the first place because of the cartoon (Young Justice was doing great), so why not change her?

Also, John was always a marine. And he's not like his DCAU character--he's far less annoying. He's also an architect, and this shows when he uses his ring. As opposed to making simplistic creations with his ring, everything John does is complex, almost as if it were actually built instead of a light construct.

Quote:

Other than that, though, I do wonder why people read his runs if they had no prior interest in the characters before reading. You can't just be reading a series because of the writer. If you do, you'll find out you really don't like the series as much as you thought you did, you just liked the writer.
No, I knew that already. Some characters (most, even) just aren't interesting to me without the correct writer to give them life.

therealssjlink November 28th, 2008 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageShinigami (Post 1357271)
Well, its my belief that Teen Titans was only brought about in the first place because of the cartoon (Young Justice was doing great), so why not change her?

Also, John was always a marine. And he's not like his DCAU character--he's far less annoying. He's also an architect, and this shows when he uses his ring. As opposed to making simplistic creations with his ring, everything John does is complex, almost as if it were actually built instead of a light construct.

About the Teen Titans thing, you are incorrect. Teen Titan series have been running since the 70s. They didn't just create V.3 because of YJ (which I did not read, BTW). Johns has stated before that things like the romance between R&BB were planned well before and without influence from the cartoon, but I find that hard to believe.

No, John wasn't always a marine. An architect, yes, but not a marine. It ended up being put into his character, but he was always an architect first and a marine second.

Have you been reading the current GL series? Every construct from John is marine related now (sniper rifles, machine guns, etc.)

I believe the issues with his constructs [in the cartoon] have been addressed in an interview as them not wanting to create something new each time and in the show as him being not creative. The funny part about this is that Sinestro told Hal in Secret Origins that he wasn't being creative by making the same simplistic objects every time.

TJ Freeman November 29th, 2008 01:12 AM

I have my opinions on this but I'll save em until i see what happens to GL when Geoff eventually stops writing that.

Booster Gold isn't bad... I give it about as long as that Blue Beetle book lasted if that.

Redcape November 30th, 2008 08:36 PM

I hope Booster can last. He's a great character regardless of who's writing him.

Director of Everything December 7th, 2008 03:05 AM

Here's the problem.

Geoff comes in with a straight out vision, cleans up all the clutter and mainlines the status quo and cast onto a forward path. I would LOVE to write a book after Geoff because it's already all set, ready to go.

The PROBLEM comes in the form of less experienced or mediocre writers being put onto these books, wanting to make a name for themselves or thinking they've got "another" or "better" way. It's what I call the Aquaman Syndrome. "I'm gonna do MY take on the character".

It's ********. It's the reason we'll never see WHAT Geoff's plans were for Carter Hall past #25. There was real build up and set up there, the hint of a bigger picture and plan being formed. But no one picked up on it.

Anyone who follows Geoff needs to quit ****in' around and realize the gift they've been given. I'm not saying don't do your own thing. Just don't do it at the expense of what works.

-Dan

Hol December 8th, 2008 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Director of Everything (Post 1362393)
Here's the problem.

Geoff comes in with a straight out vision, cleans up all the clutter and mainlines the status quo and cast onto a forward path. I would LOVE to write a book after Geoff because it's already all set, ready to go.

The PROBLEM comes in the form of less experienced or mediocre writers being put onto these books, wanting to make a name for themselves or thinking they've got "another" or "better" way. It's what I call the Aquaman Syndrome. "I'm gonna do MY take on the character".

It's ********. It's the reason we'll never see WHAT Geoff's plans were for Carter Hall past #25. There was real build up and set up there, the hint of a bigger picture and plan being formed. But no one picked up on it.

Anyone who follows Geoff needs to quit ****in' around and realize the gift they've been given. I'm not saying don't do your own thing. Just don't do it at the expense of what works.

-Dan


What he said.

I would have love'd to have seen what Geoff had planned for Hawkman post #25. Stupid Teen Titans and Green Lantern Rebirth. :(

Director of Everything December 8th, 2008 02:26 PM

Imagine if GJ had said (totally paraphrasing here), after SCW, "I have more things I would like to get to one day but I think it's time to move on and do a few other things first. I can always come back to it later". What would GL be like right now? Hmmm.

This is the tragedy of Hawkman.

But no, my point was, he cleans house and sets things up for success and then the writers who follow him never utilize what they're given. It's tragic.

thunderdude December 8th, 2008 02:39 PM

Well, I did think GJ had set up a nice "What if Harrison Ford teamed up with Eliza Dushku?" vibe there with Hawkman that was never really followed up on. Plus, I have absoultely no idea why Kendra lost her personality when Simonson took over.

Navydeepsea January 24th, 2009 09:29 PM

It's ********. It's the reason we'll never see WHAT Geoff's plans were for Carter Hall past #25. There was real build up and set up there, the hint of a bigger picture and plan being formed. But no one picked up on it.

I thought P&G's run was pretty strong (except for the first story arc, to freekin whiny) but it's a shame we couldn't expand further on Geoff's threads. (Atom investigating Nth metal properties with Carter, more ancient threats, lost civilizations, ancient Egypt goodness, as well as more Sword and Sorcery/Pulp style stories. No question in my mind Hawkman done in this style, written by John's or ANY likeminded competent writer could have a succesful title there........)

Tar-Ik January 25th, 2009 01:06 AM

See at least this time the people following Geoff on JSoA and Greg Rucka on Action you know that they will do a good job while adding thier own voice to the books, but not to far removed from what Geoff has esstablished.

superchick July 28th, 2009 07:59 PM

Of geoff took notice of the Teen Titans cartoon Raven and Dick would have dated. They had an exceptional and mature chemistry in that cartoon and made Starfire look like an immature ditz. Kind of like a harvard graduate dating a model


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