NY Times outs Batwoman. DUH SPOILERS!!!!!

[Bedlam66]

The Sunday, May 28th Edition of the NY Times has a full page article on diversity in comics. Titled "Straight (and Not) Out of the Comics: At DC and Marvel Comics, new heroes are gay, black, Asian and Hispanic. Get used to it." In addition to writing about Black Panther's wedding and the new Blue Beetle, writer George Gene Gustines discusses the new Batwoman.... Kathy Kane.

"Batwoman is a wealthy, buxom lipstick lesbian who has a history with Renee Montoya, an ex-police detective who has a starring role in '52'."

[B_n_L]

Interesting. It was rumored that the new gay hero would be her for a while now. It probably won't be a major spoiler or plot point, but it's still strange that DC let this info slip early, since they've been so tight lipped about everything else. By the way, how much do you wanna bet it was Rucka's idea to make her gay, with his lesbian fixation. :0P

[ShazamsChampion]

I wonder if her and bruce will end up competing for the same woman?

[Stormking]

Got a link to the online article for those not getting the NY Times?

[Stormking]

I wonder if her and bruce will end up competing for the same woman?

Oh that's wrong... FUNNY, but wrong....

[Chris Hansbrough]

I wonder if her and bruce will end up competing for the same woman?
that would be interesting actually. batman does have enough money to never work another day in his life........but we'd better not jump to conclusions.......mat

OFFICE SPACE RULES!!!

[Bedlam66]

No I don't. My friend gets the paper and he pointed it out to me. I haven't looked online yet. It's shame too cause there is a Nice Pic with the article.

[Stormking]

Okay, today's Saturday the 27th... Advance copy?

[Amentep]

Okay, today's Saturday the 27th... Advance copy?

A lot of (if not most or all) papers have their Sunday paper ready by the begining of the weekend and put it on sale (changing the headlines for the final home to reflect current headlines).

IIRC the local paper's Sunday edition is on sale on Fridays here.

[DLM]

If this is the case, I want to see several Batwoman-Flamebird team-ups in the future.

[Bedlam66]

I'm more interested in seeing Renee Montoya and Kathy kane "team Up" :D :D :D :D

[ShazamsChampion]

I'm more interested in seeing Renee Montoya and Kathy kane "team Up" :D :D :D :D

I think we may have to wait for a vertigo version of Batwoman for that, but I'd buy it.

[Stormking]

A lot of (if not most or all) papers have their Sunday paper ready by the begining of the weekend and put it on sale (changing the headlines for the final home to reflect current headlines).

IIRC the local paper's Sunday edition is on sale on Fridays here.

I guess I'm in the backwater where the Sunday paper doesn't come out until... Sunday.
True, I'm sure the local rag is ready to go as I type this barring any breaking changes, but it won't print until tonight.

[Nightwing826]

Why the hell is she a lesbian! That pisses me off. But I like Batwoman anyways.

[ShazamsChampion]

Why the hell is she a lesbian! That pisses me off. But I like Batwoman anyways.

Come on. A hot redheaded "lipstick" lesbain in leather?
How can that possibly piss you off?

[Nightwing826]

Come on. A hot redheaded "lipstick" lesbain in leather?
How can that possibly piss you off?



I plead the 5th lol

I just didn't think it really needed to do with Montoya?

[Ken Liner]

If true, I'm not sure I like the idea of this retcon. Why use Kathy Kane? Just make it a brand new character.

[joesmallville]

Newsarama has the pic and more info

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71980

[carmine007]

why is it always a lipstick lesbian in comics? when are we going to have non-lipstick lesbians with dennis Eckersley haircuts?

[Bedlam66]

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/52/BatwomanColor.jpg

Here's the pic. Now I really want to see that "team-up"

[DLM]

That's actually a pretty sweet costume.
She's gonna regret those heels when she begins jumping twenty foot gaps between rooftops though...

[Infernorhythm]

I'm more interested in seeing Renee Montoya and Kathy kane "team Up" :D :D :D :D
Oy vey....

Sadly, even I have to go with that, if only a bit.

[Mark MacMillan]

I don't know. Never really liked Renee Montoya to begin with because I'm not really a fan of taking minor supporting TV characters and forcing them into comics. If they're going to do something like that, then why not use A-List characters like Static or Isis? It just didn't make much sense to me to throw a character like her in before characters like those two. And retroactively making her a lesbian cop didn't exactly score any points with me either (sorry, Maggie Sawyer fan here :D)

So, this I think I'll pass on.

[Bedlam66]

well if your getting 52 your going to read about the char anyway since she shows up there first. Since I'm getting 52 I'm interested in what they do with her. And I didn't know that Renee was in a tv show my first intro to her was Goth Central and she's one of my Favs.

[glitterdammerung]

i'm really looking fwd to the Chinese superteam that is debuting. i love their costumes and backgrounds.. well the tidbits we are getting at least.... Mother of Champions has one of the most fascinating if not disturbing powers I've heard of!

[imarriedsatanII]

I'm totally excited about this! And I love the simple design of her costume. I'll be buying 2 copies of whatever she's in.

And am I alone in finding it hilarious that Kathy Kane is now a lesbian considering that she and Betty were brought into the comics in the 50s as love interests for Dick and Bruce to dispell the Batman and Robin homosexuality rumors?

[WARRIOR]

Yes, you are alone. :D

[imarriedsatanII]

*sniff* :(

[Icefan]

And am I alone in finding it hilarious that Kathy Kane is now a lesbian considering that she and Betty were brought into the comics in the 50s as love interests for Dick and Bruce to dispell the Batman and Robin homosexuality rumors?

'tis a bit ironic. Considering the main audience of comics today I'm not sure how "daring" a lipstick lesbian protagonist is, over say a Maggie Sawyer type.

[Outburstt]

It look slike her costume was inspired by the Batman Beyond Bat-Suit

[Colin Solan]

So will Renee become Batwoman's ward....?

[The Batman]

I'm totally excited about this! And I love the simple design of her costume. I'll be buying 2 copies of whatever she's in.

And am I alone in finding it hilarious that Kathy Kane is now a lesbian considering that she and Betty were brought into the comics in the 50s as love interests for Dick and Bruce to dispell the Batman and Robin homosexuality rumors?

I was thinking the same thing!

[Michael Painter]

The Mother of Champions thing really is interesting on a gross level. Pregnancy as a superpower! Hah! I wonder if the Chinese government has a problem with her giving birth to more than one child, according to the law?
And Lady Fox Killer reminds me so much of a Kill Bill character. A women who kills evil men! Yes.

[Ohoni]

Bah, if it's not Cassandra Caine, then I'm just not interested. This looks to be another "title" that I bought happlilly before IC that I won't be buying post IC. Good job DC.

[mmk123]

Batwoman was always one of my favortie all time characters and I was pissed when Denny O'Neil killed her off. The were rumors that Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) was going to be revamped and call herself Batwoman but that never happened. I love the revamped costume that has elements of Batgirl's, Batman Beyond's and Batwoman's outfit combined into one. (I wonder if we are going to see her sport a bat-bag with bracelet handcuff's, a huge "powder puff", etc that the original had)

I am curious if they will keep her relationship with Bruce Wayne intact. Since she is a lesbian, she might have dated Bruce as a cover if she was not out at the time. I wonder if they will keep her circus background as well.

[Tattoo_Six]

heres the article from the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/arts/28gustines.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[DABEARS]

Thanks for the info. I really like that costume.

[Bedlam66]

The Mother of Champions thing really is interesting on a gross level. Pregnancy as a superpower! Hah! I wonder if the Chinese government has a problem with her giving birth to more than one child, according to the law?
And Lady Fox Killer reminds me so much of a Kill Bill character. A women who kills evil men! Yes.
Yea but Pregnat Chicks are hot so that makes her Super Hot ALL the time.

[Piper]

Disappointed by the news of the identity of Batwoman. Once again, it's a result of being a DC newbie...I have no idea who Kathy Kane even is. Since I'm familiar with Renee, I was hoping she'd be Batwoman.

[Stormking]

Disappointed by the news of the identity of Batwoman. Once again, it's a result of being a DC newbie...I have no idea who Kathy Kane even is. Since I'm familiar with Renee, I was hoping she'd be Batwoman.

I thought the thread and the article had a good summary of Kathy Kane. It is very, very ironic that Kathy was introduced into the Bat-Mythos as a rebuttal to Seduction of the Innocents,specifically to be Bruce Wayne's girlfriend, and almost thirty years after her final appearance she comes back as a lesbian.

Like other posters, I wonder if they will tie Kathy Kane to Flamebird.

Hmm.
Could this mean that Bette will reclaim her original ID as the Bat-Girl?

[imarriedsatanII]

I thought the thread and the article had a good summary of Kathy Kane. It is very, very ironic that Kathy was introduced into the Bat-Mythos as a rebuttal to Seduction of the Innocents,specifically to be Bruce Wayne's girlfriend, and almost thirty years after her final appearance she comes back as a lesbian.

Like other posters, I wonder if they will tie Kathy Kane to Flamebird.

Hmm.
Could this mean that Bette will reclaim her original ID as the Bat-Girl?


That would be too cool!

[DefenderOfTerra]

Well I'm gonna wait and see before I pass judgment.

But for one thing; I REALLY like the costume.

[CapeandCowl]

Does anyone else think that this Batwoman is going to share the same fate as the original?

[Stormking]

Well I'm gonna wait and see before I pass judgment.

But for one thing; I REALLY like the costume.

It is a really freakin' good costume. Anyone know who designed it?

[joesmallville]

It is a really freakin' good costume. Anyone know who designed it?


The article at Newsarama said Alex Ross designed the costume

[Stormking]

The article at Newsarama said Alex Ross designed the costume

Cheers. I must have skimmed past that blurb.

The NY Times article was a good read.

[Kane_fan]

At first I was overjoyed that Kathy Kane would be coming back as Batwoman, but then DC goes and sticks it to another classic character for the sake of diversity. This is sooo wrong. They're really trying hard to make this long time fan spend money elsewhere.

Post-Inifinite Crisis is not looking that great to me. I'm wondering how this all ties into Flamebird? If DC messes up with Bette Kane too I'm gone for sure.

Not a happy fan right now. :(

[bgztl]

That just sounds stupid frankly.

Why be Batwoman at all?

If that's really the concept, it's pretty weak.

[J-Liv]

At first I was overjoyed that Kathy Kane would be coming back as Batwoman, but then DC goes and sticks it to another classic character for the sake of diversity. This is sooo wrong. They're really trying hard to make this long time fan spend money elsewhere.

Post-Inifinite Crisis is not looking that great to me. I'm wondering how this all ties into Flamebird? If DC messes up with Bette Kane too I'm gone for sure.

Not a happy fan right now. :(

I'm sorry, but I don't exactly see how making her a lesbian is "sticking it to" the character. Especially when you consider that, as long as Winick doesn't get his hands on it, it will most likely be a minor plot point.

-Jason

[Infernorhythm]

Huh, I have no problems with lesbian characters or anything, so this new Kathy Kane is all right with me. Although, I have to say, who in Gotham isn't a socialite? Isn't that angle done to death? My only real gripe with the character is the costume. I'm a huge Terry McGinnis fan, and if they're going to incorporate the Beyond logo and color scheme into this new costume, the character better be worth it.

[Sinyaa]

Pros:

1. Ironically reintroducing Kathy Kane as a lesbian. ;)

2. The costume. It's very Batman Beyondish which just rocks.

Cons:

1. The heels. C'mon DC, join the 21st century! A non-powered woman fighting crime in high heels just isn't practical. :p I wince in sympathy for her poor feet. Hopefully, she won't break an ankle while scaling buildings. The guy who designed Tim Drake's first Robin costume had the right idea. The tabi boots might have looked silly to some (I loved them) but at least they helped him climb.

2. The origin. But I'm not going to say to much on that until I see it played out in comics. It's seems a little over-done, but maybe it won't be when I see it in context.

I wonder if she'll have any relation to Flamebird/Bette Kane? That might be interesting to see. But then again, I can see them not doing that because most people will expect it. *shrugs*

[Warren Worthington]

At first I was overjoyed that Kathy Kane would be coming back as Batwoman, but then DC goes and sticks it to another classic character for the sake of diversity. This is sooo wrong. They're really trying hard to make this long time fan spend money elsewhere.

Post-Inifinite Crisis is not looking that great to me. I'm wondering how this all ties into Flamebird? If DC messes up with Bette Kane too I'm gone for sure.

Not a happy fan right now. :(


I'm sorry, there happen to be lesbians in the real world.

I have to agree with JL, you really need to widen your perspective.

[allanf]

Jesus, there's a lot of ugly reactionary comments in this thread.

Thought I'd accidently clicked on Newsarama or something for a minute....

As far as the news itself goes, I'm thrilled with everything we know so far.

[kory_anders]

I'm happy it's Kathy Kane and I don't really think they'll throw the lesbian side of her in too heavily. Although was it ever stated Batwoman would be a lesbian or is this just speculation?

I'm just glad they didn't decide to have Babs somehow dawn the cape and cowl again...she can do so much more as Oracle, always thought it would be a step backwards for her if she did turn out to be Batwoman.

[Paul_King]

Since I seem to cause some controversy with my posts lately: Please read my entire post before rushing to judgement!

The GOOD:

The outfit looks great. The idea of a complex character representing diversity is a positive in the industry especially if she's written as well as Renee Montoya has been treated in comics.

The BAD:

Since I'm not reading 52, I'll have to wait for her series or her appearances in comics I am reading to get to know the character.

The UGLY:

The description: "Buxom, Lip-stick Lesbian" sounds like the description on the back of a soft core porn movie. It does a disservice to the segment it's trying to represent. I am offended in this cheap tactic to appeal to close-minded people by focusing on the over-sexualized portrayal of people, women especially, in the media.

A better description would be:

A heroic woman who has/had a romantic relationship with Renee Montoya, one of the female stars of DC Comic's 52.

This would show she is a Lesbian but show she's being taken serious and is representing diversity and doing justice to a segment of comic's readership that the character will have resonance with.

Conclusion:

I am happy to here about the character and I'm intrigued but it just shows how harmful mainstream media can be in trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

I have confidence, with after the respect given to characters of diversity by DC and the writers *see Renee Montoya, that she could and probably will be taken serious and become an important character to the DCU.

I have less confidence in the NY Times ability to show the positivity of diversity in media.

-Paul

[Paul_King]

Although was it ever stated Batwoman would be a lesbian or is this just speculation?


Yes:
Kathy Kane, who, according to the article: “…is a wealthy (socialite), buxom lipstick lesbian who has a history with Renee Montoya, an ex-police detective who has a starring role in 52."

It's just a shame it was done in a disrespectful, demeaning way.

-Paul

[kory_anders]

It's just a shame it was done in a disrespectful, demeaning way.

-Paul

Shows me to pay more attention :o Thanks Paul!

[bgztl]

The issue isn't that she's a lesbian.

What is this character's raison d'etre? She's a lesbian lover of Montoya's? Okay. So why dress like a bat and fight crime.

It's lame.

The old version was lame too, but if Kathy Kane was in love with Batman, it at least made some modicum of sense.

There needs to be more than what's been reported for this to work.

[Gremlin]

The Sunday, May 28th Edition of the NY Times has a full page article on diversity in comics. Titled "Straight (and Not) Out of the Comics: At DC and Marvel Comics, new heroes are gay, black, Asian and Hispanic. Get used to it." In addition to writing about Black Panther's wedding and the new Blue Beetle, writer George Gene Gustines discusses the new Batwoman.... Kathy Kane.

"Batwoman is a wealthy, buxom lipstick lesbian who has a history with Renee Montoya, an ex-police detective who has a starring role in '52'."

Dan Didio's DC is starting to read like a fan boy's porn scribblings....

Grem--Somebody, please stop reading Dan Camille Paglia before bedtime.

[Gremlin]

Wonder what this means for Bette?

Grem-

[allanf]

There needs to be more than what's been reported for this to work.
Fair enough, but given that we've only got two sentences from a non-comics source not even focusing entirely on the project, don't you think it's a bit early to be declaring it lame? Wait 'til Didio or whoever officially discusses the project before taking that massive jump to a conclusion. (I think the Newsarama article said that such a thing was happening Sunday.)

I mean, seriously, since the whole article takes the seemingly ill-informed stance that superhero comics lack diversity and the genre's fans are resisitant to diversity in general, I'd take it as a given that the capsule information given about BATWOMAN is equally "dumbed down".

[TTitanFan25]

This news pleases me! I like the new DC being more realistic and expanding the races and sexuality of their characters. It's been a long time coming...

[J-Liv]

Yeah, as far as the setup of the series, lets keep the source in mind. Newspapers have a history of twisting the facts in relation to comics (and really just about anything these days) in order to sensationalize the story.

That said, Paul:

I totally agree with you on the character description being disgustingly derogatory toward the gay/lesbian community. I also really like your rephrasing, as it not only is less derogatory, but frames the character as being a hero who happens to be lesbian, as opposed to a lesbian who happens to be a hero. And that's a MAJOR difference, in my eyes. It COMPLETELY shifts the focus of the character.

However, we need to all take a deep breath and realize that this is the description given by the collumnist, not the description given by DC. I've met Didio; he's no horny fanboy, and I'm certain that he would never let his company publish such a description. For whatever complaints we may have about him on occasion (and he's made one decision or another that's displeased us all, I'm sure), I personally give him more credit than that.

All that said, lets wait for the OFFICIAL anouncement before making judgements.

-Jason

[DrMylesOBoogie]

And here we have another shameless gimmick to court publicity and get lots of press for the book.

[grimston1]

I feel like DC is tying to be an advocate. How many gay characters in the DC universe? Montoya, Maggie Sawyer, Piper from flash, Terry -G.L. Kyle's gopher. Is DC just wanting quick media attention? If this were truly about diversity where is the devote Christian hero? What about a Pro life Republican? A Priest that takes a vow of poverty to fight poverty?

For years people have praised or criticize liberal Hollywood. Are we now looking at a Liberal DC comics?

[DEWLine]

They've been there all along, unnoticed amidst the rest of the DCU?

[ggiandonato]

I guess this means Montoya is toast.

[anxia]

I feel like DC is tying to be an advocate. How many gay characters in the DC universe? Montoya, Maggie Sawyer, Piper from flash, Terry -G.L. Kyle's gopher. Is DC just wanting quick media attention? If this were truly about diversity where is the devote Christian hero? What about a Pro life Republican? A Priest that takes a vow of poverty to fight poverty?

For years people have praised or criticize liberal Hollywood. Are we now looking at a Liberal DC comics?

Yeah, WOW -- four supporting characters.

Because everybody knows that, in real life, there are only three gay people on the entire planet.

But, seriously, people -- I doubt that one seeingly stereotypical character (don't get me wrong -- as a bisexual female, I'm happy to see diversity in comics, but 'buxom lipstick lesbian' is hardly new territory) is a sign of any gay or liberal agenda in comics.

[Chris Hansbrough]

I feel like DC is tying to be an advocate. How many gay characters in the DC universe? Montoya, Maggie Sawyer, Piper from flash, Terry -G.L. Kyle's gopher. Is DC just wanting quick media attention? If this were truly about diversity where is the devote Christian hero? What about a Pro life Republican? A Priest that takes a vow of poverty to fight poverty?

For years people have praised or criticize liberal Hollywood. Are we now looking at a Liberal DC comics?
yeah god forbif in a huge universe like DC with thousands upon thousands of heroes 4 of them happen to be gay The world is crumbling around us AHHHHHH!!!!!!!

sorry but when did matthewman spawn clones.

Christian hero? I'm sorry but aren't a good majority of heroes christian?

[bgztl]

Fair enough, but given that we've only got two sentences from a non-comics source not even focusing entirely on the project, don't you think it's a bit early to be declaring it lame? Wait 'til Didio or whoever officially discusses the project before taking that massive jump to a conclusion. (I think the Newsarama article said that such a thing was happening Sunday.)

I mean, seriously, since the whole article takes the seemingly ill-informed stance that superhero comics lack diversity and the genre's fans are resisitant to diversity in general, I'd take it as a given that the capsule information given about BATWOMAN is equally "dumbed down".

True enough, allan. My fear here is that the reporter was given that summary by DC. If Batwoman is "DC's lesbian heroine" she will be no more effective than Extrano was.

Example:

If Montoya is fated to die in 52, I can see where that might be the impetus for Batwoman to assume a costumed identity. I can also see that she might become Batwoman because of the absence of Gotham's traditional hero. (And here, I'm obviously just speculating on a possible plot). That's a solid enough tale to begin a series on. The characters modus would arise out of vengeance AND a sense of carrying on something important to Montoya --maybe with just a bit of derring-do, acrobatics and a need for an adrenaline rush from her career as a circus performer/owner as well.

But if DC's markets it as "the lesbian superheroine" instead of as a rounded character who happens to be a lesbian it's just going to be another stereotype.

Obviously, we'll all see soon.

[bgztl]

I feel like DC is tying to be an advocate. How many gay characters in the DC universe? Montoya, Maggie Sawyer, Piper from flash, Terry -G.L. Kyle's gopher. Is DC just wanting quick media attention? If this were truly about diversity where is the devote Christian hero? What about a Pro life Republican? A Priest that takes a vow of poverty to fight poverty?



They're out there. But, once again, as with your examples, they tend to be supporting characters. The Spectre is probably the best example of an overtly relgious hero that DC has ever had. Jim Corrigan's talks with Father Cramer and his worldview are clearly deeply (and sometimes disturbingly) religious.

But there are many other examples. Atom-smasher comes to mind.

[Kaptain Kanuck]

Why is it, when I read that post that spills the beans about who is Batwoman... did I think the choice was so boring?
Cassandra Cain was the bomb. It was her that should have evolved... not to make pale light on the new one... But Cassie had a tonne more personality as a character, than a token lipstick lesbian Batwoman. I mean who the **** cares who she goes home to? or if she's a total butch dyke or not?
:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:
Bad character development.. Kathy Kane was a thing of the past, and to be quite frank... she should have stayed there...

I hope this is a situation like the Flash book they were talking of...
where the first one may not be the final character the book is about..
C'mon Cassie! reclaim your throne!!!

[Augustine]

I really do like the fact that Ross blantantly copied the Batman Beyond costume but other than that I'm pretty tired of DC's "silver age kick" and once the fact she's a lesbian is gone and the newness of the character has worn off how poorly will she be written than axed.

Can't say this is half as diverse as Cassandra as Batgirl was at all.

At least Winnick has a new pet project to go on talk shows about.

PS Ross not only riped off BB but this guy as well. (http://comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Page=1&Order=Date&Piece=37401&GSub=4976&GCat=0&UCat=0)

[Yanni]

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72016

Here's an interview with Dad Didio about Batwoman from Newsarama.

[Devlyn16]

I liked the idea of Multiple characters in the cowel from the 'Batman:Mystery of the Batwoman'
movie:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0308/27/batwoman1th.jpg

http://www.mcfergesondvd.com/pics/batman/batman4.jpg
I don't care about the sexuality of the character other than that once the choice was made they should have adjusted the name of the secret ID of the character.

If this were truly about diversity where is the devote Christian hero?

Weird i thought there used to be an ANGEL of GOD on the JLA


What about a Pro life Republican?

Not sure if he's pro-life but isn't Guy Gardner a Conservative?


A Priest that takes a vow of poverty to fight poverty?


For years people have praised or criticize liberal Hollywood. Are we now looking at a Liberal DC comics?

No more or less than we ever have been. Generaly I don't like people pushing agendas with their comic stories, but I see wisdom in waiting and reading the Story before begining a witch hunt.

[Mark MacMillan]

I feel like DC is tying to be an advocate. How many gay characters in the DC universe? Montoya, Maggie Sawyer, Piper from flash, Terry -G.L. Kyle's gopher. Is DC just wanting quick media attention? If this were truly about diversity where is the devote Christian hero? What about a Pro life Republican? A Priest that takes a vow of poverty to fight poverty?

For years people have praised or criticize liberal Hollywood. Are we now looking at a Liberal DC comics?

Well here's some of the heroes I know with obvious religious ties...

The Spectre (Christianity/Catholicism)
Zauriel (Christianity/Catholicism)
Ragman (Judaism)
Judomaster (Buddhism)

Here are a couple I'm not sure about...

Monolith (Judaism?)
Etrigan (Catholicism?)

I know Adam Smasher is Jewish and Doc. Mid-Nite is Christian, but I'm not sure about anybody else and don't want to label anyone wrongly.

Anyway, religion seems pretty well represented, IMO. It's the Gay and Lesbian community that isn't, IMO.

[Paul_King]

That said, Paul:

I totally agree with you on the character description being disgustingly derogatory toward the gay/lesbian community. I also really like your rephrasing, as it not only is less derogatory, but frames the character as being a hero who happens to be lesbian, as opposed to a lesbian who happens to be a hero. And that's a MAJOR difference, in my eyes. It COMPLETELY shifts the focus of the character.

However, we need to all take a deep breath and realize that this is the description given by the collumnist, not the description given by DC. I've met Didio; he's no horny fanboy, and I'm certain that he would never let his company publish such a description. For whatever complaints we may have about him on occasion (and he's made one decision or another that's displeased us all, I'm sure), I personally give him more credit than that.

All that said, lets wait for the OFFICIAL anouncement before making judgements.

-Jason
I agree and do NOT blame DiDio or DC for the description.

I put it fully in the NY Times reporter's lap.

[Erinyes]

Incase no one has noticed there is a little interview about the character with Dan on Newsarama now. It gives a bit more insight to things dealing with the character and I really like the way it could go..
The only downside is they may be calling her Kate instead of Kathy.
Thom

[krypt0nian]

Wow I have to say that all these calls of "token" lesbian are offensive to me. No one here has any idea of the writing or the character situation, and Didio's plan of inclusiveness and diversity can only be a good one. Try and keep the bigotry to a minimum.

[Chris Hansbrough]

Wow I have to say that all these calls of "token" lesbian are offensive to me. No one here has any idea of the writing or the character situation, and Didio's plan of inclusiveness and diversity can only be a good one. Try and keep the bigotry to a minimum.
for the most part it's people here quoting the article which in my mind is a horrid description for the character as it does describe her as a token lesbian. there are only a few bad posts in here with the hate in them but for the most part it's discussing the words used in the articele which for the most part are a journalistic joke.

[krypt0nian]

for the most part it's people here quoting the article which in my mind is a horrid description for the character as it does describe her as a token lesbian. there are only a few bad posts in here with the hate in them but for the most part it's discussing the words used in the articele which for the most part are a journalistic joke.

I was talking about the posts that wouldn't be in "for the most part" I agree with you that most here are level headed.

[tcjohnson]

The NYT's article was aimed at people who want to be kept up on popculture, not comic book fans.


Here is what Didio has to say, which is aimed at comic book fans: http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72016


One thing that I think is funny is that when I read some responses...I don't think people even knows what lipstick lesbian means.

[grimston1]

Again- Where are the diversity of the NEW characters?



1. Let’s pick out a guy from 20 years ago. Guy Gardner was a comic relief, Cold war era, idea of a Republican. Wasn’t he the person that everyone on the team hated? What if a gay character was the one member of the team that everyone could not stand?


2. Zauriel was a fallen angel that forsook Heaven for the love of a Woman. He has been sort of a spitural adviser to the DCU but I have never seen any indication that he is a Christian Hero. I don't think he would get the endorsement of the Vatican.

I did not know that there was a witch hunt going on but I just wanted to point out that not any of the new post IC characters represent true diversity. The best minority character that DC has come up with is Mr. Terrific. He is not a stereotype. The thing that I like best about Mr. Terrific is that you don’t think of him as a black hero but a high tech hero that happens to be black. That should be the idea of any hero.

[glitterdammerung]

For years people have praised or criticize liberal Hollywood. Are we now looking at a Liberal DC comics?

Do you honestly feel that there is a liberal media out there that is attempting to subvert North America? Last time I checked DC was owned by Time Warner, a large media conglomerate that attempts to please its buyers at large. This is the same company that when push comes to shove will edit when it feels it is necessary. For example, did Apollo at Midnighter, written by its creator Warrel Ellis, really ruin anything about the initial run of Authority? Not at all, it was just background material to take in. Do I really need to see another WASP super hero? While it is not a deciding factor about a comic character's racial/sexual identity, it certainly hasn't ruined my enjoyment of comics.

[Kaptain Kanuck]

Here's an example of someone who 'gets it':

Since I seem to cause some controversy with my posts lately: Please read my entire post before rushing to judgement!

The GOOD:

The outfit looks great. The idea of a complex character representing diversity is a positive in the industry especially if she's written as well as Renee Montoya has been treated in comics.

The BAD:

Since I'm not reading 52, I'll have to wait for her series or her appearances in comics I am reading to get to know the character.

The UGLY:

The description: "Buxom, Lip-stick Lesbian" sounds like the description on the back of a soft core porn movie. It does a disservice to the segment it's trying to represent. I am offended in this cheap tactic to appeal to close-minded people by focusing on the over-sexualized portrayal of people, women especially, in the media.

A better description would be:

A heroic woman who has/had a romantic relationship with Renee Montoya, one of the female stars of DC Comic's 52.

This would show she is a Lesbian but show she's being taken serious and is representing diversity and doing justice to a segment of comic's readership that the character will have resonance with.

Conclusion:

I am happy to here about the character and I'm intrigued but it just shows how harmful mainstream media can be in trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

I have confidence, with after the respect given to characters of diversity by DC and the writers *see Renee Montoya, that she could and probably will be taken serious and become an important character to the DCU.

I have less confidence in the NY Times ability to show the positivity of diversity in media.

-Paul

and some one who doesnt...
Wow I have to say that all these calls of "token" lesbian are offensive to me. No one here has any idea of the writing or the character situation, and Didio's plan of inclusiveness and diversity can only be a good one. Try and keep the bigotry to a minimum.

Try and see the entire picture before painting people with your 'bigot brush' :mad:

I have no problem that the character is a lesbian... Frankly, I dont really care. However what I do care about (as do many others) is that they threw a competely unique NEW hero to the wolves to reinvent one that never worked in the first place...
It's Jason Todd all over again. Instead of new developments, and new takes, why did they go to the long dead Robin? to sensationalize the story to the masses... As proven by the storyline in the ever popular New York Times.

Cassie displayed unique qualities that many struggle through and NEVER before was it confronted. She is/was Socially Inept, and a mute... She still had major issues heading in to the final issue. Problems that are much more real and serious than sexuality, or lifestyle. We're talking about a real life problem that was tackled in a very effective manner, that many people (gay, or straight) can feel for. A quality that each and every one of us have felt before (not being worthy, or lack of esteem to do what someone truly wanted, or even problems arising from abuse from parental figures)... They turned her nuts, for what the NYT's are describing, "a buxom, redheaded lesbian with history w/ Bruce Wayne, and Renee Montoya"... In heels nonetheless....

Lets not kid ourselves here... I AM in fact describing what I read, how I see it... not with prejudice, but with absolute disappointment... as they threw away a great character, who was fighting many more inequalities (such as gender equality, and social ineptitude, which BTW, is always classified as villainism in Comic Books) on many levels not seen previously.

In closing... I take offense to the fact that they took a character who was showing equality between genders (which has never been done before) and a character with major social issues considered unacceptable... For a woman fighting crime in high heels, and a ripped off costume design... Whom they also decided whose character was not complex enough, so they added a tag on her, though more evidence of the contrary exists.

Yet I am a bigot for not having accepted this. :wtf:
That's fine... I know the truth... and where to find it. Where not to find it is in comic books... because what happens in comic books, holds no true consciousness to the world in which we live in... I read them for entertainment value... I dont expect anything but great storylines... not an education on social morality.

[krypt0nian]

Try and see the entire picture before painting people with your 'bigot brush' :mad:


I did. I never said you specifically, but you jumped in to defend yourself. That is on you - not me.

And this has nothing to do with Batgirl. Try not to let that color your views here.

[Kaptain Kanuck]

I did. I never said you specifically, but you jumped in to defend yourself. That is on you - not me.

And this has nothing to do with Batgirl. Try not to let that color your views here.

Well, I will confess I am the only one who did say 'Token Lesbian' that you apparently are offended by...
And Batgirl was where I began my post with... And let's not kid ourselves, Batgirl is cancelled, and Batwoman starts... One was cancelled for the other... and to be quite frank, it's where my original post began... which had to do with the NYT article, the character development... and Batgirl (who is replaced/cancelled), but... nice try.
And furthermore, I defend myself, cause I am not going to be walked over, and called a 'bigot' because I disagree with a plot development from DC Comics.

[Rene Ferrer]

Wonderful. DC cancels my niece's favorite comic in favor of a comic which I could never buy her in a million years. Thank you, DC. I'll be sticking to "Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane" for her comic needs from now on.

[B_n_L]

Again- Where are the diversity of the NEW characters?

I did not know that there was a witch hunt going on but I just wanted to point out that not any of the new post IC characters represent true diversity. The best minority character that DC has come up with is Mr. Terrific. He is not a stereotype. The thing that I like best about Mr. Terrific is that you don’t think of him as a black hero but a high tech hero that happens to be black. That should be the idea of any hero.

But the point is that there are a majority of Christian characters in DC comics that already exist, so there's no "diversity" in creating more of the same. On the other hand, the gay characters you listed earlier are pretty much it, and most of them aren't even superheroes, but supporting characters. I don't know if you're familiar with the site, but if not, you might find this link (http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religion.html) interesting and informative.

As for conservative characters, isn't Hal Jordan one? I never read the series, but I've heard that his politics was an important part of the old Green Arrow/Green Lantern comic, playing up the "liberal and conservative odd couple" angle. And for what it's worth, on the subject Guy Gardner's teammates not liking him, Green Arrow has also been portrayed as a jerk, especially lately, so at least there's equality in that sense.

Regarding the idea that a hero's minority status should come second is not really something I would agree with, at least not 100% of the time. For a lot of minorities, it's not just a small part of who they are, it's often something that has shaped who they are in a major way. I feel like ignoring that isn't truly honoring diversity, it's just tokenism. For those who are uncomfortable with a minority group or the issues they face, they could have the chance to enjoy a character in a "safe, non-threatening" way that doesn't force them to confront any real issues that the character struggles with.

I take offense to the fact that they took a character who was showing equality between genders (which has never been done before)

Granted, I never read the Batgirl comic, but...

Wonder Woman...?

[Jeff!]

At the Newsarama interview, Didio specifically states that they'll be testing the waters with the new Batwoman before giving her a series of her own. If she proves popular, she'll probably get her own mini at least.

And we don't know what's happening with Batgirl. For one, the current storyline involving her right now hasn't concluded. And there's this: NRAMA: Wrapping up – Batwoman coming back…Batgirl…not around anymore?

DIDIO: …I didn’t say that, did I? [laughs]That should at least give Batgirl fans hope for the future.

So keep in mind that Batgirl is not necessarily being "replaced" and try to withhold judgment about the new Batwoman until we can actually read about her character in the comics.

[Icefan]

But the point is that there are a majority of Christian characters in DC comics that already exist, so there's no "diversity" in creating more of the same.

Really? One might make a case for a general "good works ethical monotheism", but how many have made on page confessional statments of Christ being their personal Lord and Savior? To assume that these characters are Christian is akin to assuming that any male character without a girlfriend is gay. Is that good enough?

[B_n_L]

Really? One might make a case for a general "good works ethical monotheism", but how many have made on page confessional statments of Christ being their personal Lord and Savior? To assume that these characters are Christian is akin to assuming that any male character without a girlfriend is gay. Is that good enough?

Did you click that link in my last post? It uses evidence from the various appearances the characters have made to determine what denomination they belong to.

[Icefan]

Did you click that link in my last post? It uses evidence from the various appearances the characters have made to determine what denomination they belong to.

I've seen it, and I'll reiterate that I believe that the number of confessional Christians in mainstream comics is equal to, or less than the number of openly homosexual characters.

[grimston1]

Thanks for the link. It is interesting. But Religion is not shown in their everyday life. We see the gay lifestyle but when was the last time we saw Dick Grayson (Christian) at a Baptism, Batman (Catholic) attend mass, Hal Jordan go to confession, or Superman darken the doorway of a church?

Come to think of it, Smallville is the only small rural town that does not have a church on every other corner.

[B_n_L]

I've seen it, and I'll reiterate that I believe that the number of confessional Christians in mainstream comics is equal to, or less than the number of openly homosexual characters.

I don't mean any offense, but if you believe that, it's probably because that's just what you want to see, because there's no way there are more openly gay characters in mainstream comics than openly Christian characters. Granted, we may not see declarations of their devotion to God in every issue, but there are still lots of Christians in comics who are open about their religion, like Black Lightning and Nightcrawler.

Thanks for the link. It is interesting. But Religion is not shown in their everyday life. We see the gay lifestyle but when was the last time we saw Dick Grayson (Christian) at a Baptism, Batman (Catholic) attend mass, Hal Jordan go to confession, or Superman darken the doorway of a church?

Come to think of it, Smallville is the only small rural town that does not have a church on every other corner.

You're right that it wouldn't hurt to see things like that more often (except Batman going to church, I get the sense that he's lapsed). I still don't think we see more of the "gay lifestyle" than Christianity overall though.

[Eric2]

Christian hero? I'm sorry but aren't a good majority of heroes christian?

Honestly? Good question. The only one I know for sure is Dr. Mid-Nite.

[DEWLine]

I've long thought of Batman(Bruce at least) as Anglican(Episcopalian for USAers). Blame it on Holy Terror.

I know: some people will see me as committing the "error" of seeing Christianity as a collection of tradition/groups embracing a wide spectrum of philosophies sharing common history. That Catholicism(Fire, Capt. Atom, Huntress II, etc.), Anglicanism(Richard Craemer), Methodist(Amanda Waller), etc. traditions all jointly constitute Christianity.

I don't see that as an error.

But now I'm getting off-topic, and I apologize for that.

[Paul_King]

The NYT's article was aimed at people who want to be kept up on popculture, not comic book fans.
One thing that I think is funny is that when I read some responses...I don't think people even knows what lipstick lesbian means.
For the not-in-the-know: a lipstick lesbian is supposed to be a "pretty and girly looking" female as opposed to a butch lesbian, who's supposed to be a more manly looking female.

The problem is that people are people (to quote Depeche Mode) and some are more concerned about their appearance than others but with the media's (and our) rush to label everything: it takes individuality out of the equation.

The NYT columnist's isn't aiming at pop culture (in my opinion) as much as aiming for over-sexualization.

Comic books are pop culture. And Dan DiDio does a good job of a fair asessment of the character.

-Paul

[Sk8maven]

Thanks for the link. It is interesting. But Religion is not shown in their everyday life. We see the gay lifestyle but when was the last time we saw Dick Grayson (Christian) at a Baptism, Batman (Catholic) attend mass, Hal Jordan go to confessionFor that last, see JSA #62(?) - the start of the "Redemption Lost" arc. The same arc "outed" Dr. Mid-Nite (Pieter Cross) as Roman Catholic - which means he was a minority in his homeland, as the majority denomination in Norway (and Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Germany) is Lutheran.

I wasn't aware that Batman had been specifically identified as Catholic too. It's starting to seem that RC's are significantly OVER-represented in the DC superhero set.

As for Dick Grayson, if he still has his Romany background, they have a wonky flavor of Christianity that is all their own.

or Superman darken the doorway of a church?

Come to think of it, Smallville is the only small rural town that does not have a church on every other corner.Religion has been conspicuous by its absence from the Super-books from the get-go, probably because Siegel and Schuster were both Jewish (and knew better than to try to give Supes that affiliation!).

Maven

[Gremlin]

I feel like DC is tying to be an advocate. How many gay characters in the DC universe? Montoya, Maggie Sawyer, Piper from flash, Terry -G.L. Kyle's gopher. Is DC just wanting quick media attention? If this were truly about diversity where is the devote Christian hero? What about a Pro life Republican? A Priest that takes a vow of poverty to fight poverty?

For years people have praised or criticize liberal Hollywood. Are we now looking at a Liberal DC comics?

God, I hope so. Conservatives seem to have taken over the rest of the world, so let's see DC become a bastion of liberalism. Though, I sincerely doubt that is what is happening... BTW, its devout. And the opposite of a lesbian is not a PRO-Life republican, although, it might be interesting to have a group of Pro-lifers get stopped by supers before they blow-up a clinic..

Grem- I can't say that I actually trust DC to give us honest portrayals of LGTB characters...

[Icefan]

I don't mean any offense, but if you believe that, it's probably because that's just what you want to see, because there's no way there are more openly gay characters in mainstream comics than openly Christian characters. Granted, we may not see declarations of their devotion to God in every issue, but there are still lots of Christians in comics who are open about their religion, like Black Lightning and Nightcrawler.

Maybe Batwoman will be the exception that proofs the rule, that Nightcrawler is for confessional Christian characters. Black Lightning shows up nowadays maybe slightly more than Pied Piper. I just don't see nominal ties to a certain denomination as proof positive that a character is Christian. I have no more reason to to believe that they are than I did to believe Obsidian was gay prior to his appearances in Manhunter.

I'm all for the complete range of human experience being portrayed in comics. I don't see more gay characters as a bad thing. Similarly, I in no way consider the creation of more openly Christian (or any other religion) characters to constitute "more of the same". The fact is that is that I think Marvel and DC have been hesitant to to attach any attribute to a character that might offend a potential reader.

[Gremlin]

For that last, see JSA #62(?) - the start of the "Redemption Lost" arc. The same arc "outed" Dr. Mid-Nite (Pieter Cross) as Roman Catholic - which means he was a minority in his homeland, as the majority denomination in Norway (and Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Germany) is Lutheran.

I wasn't aware that Batman had been specifically identified as Catholic too. It's starting to seem that RC's are significantly OVER-represented in the DC superhero set.

As for Dick Grayson, if he still has his Romany background, they have a wonky flavor of Christianity that is all their own.

Religion has been conspicuous by its absence from the Super-books from the get-go, probably because Siegel and Schuster were both Jewish (and knew better than to try to give Supes that affiliation!).

Maven


I'm sure that if Dick Grayson and Batman are Christian, they are lapsed. If we are going to see religion portrayed, it should be realistically. I'm sure that Batman and Nightwing are as conflicted about religion as most humans are--it would be an oversimplification to just show them at a baptism or attending mass.

Grem--

[Gremlin]

For that last, see JSA #62(?) - the start of the "Redemption Lost" arc. The same arc "outed" Dr. Mid-Nite (Pieter Cross) as Roman Catholic - which means he was a minority in his homeland, as the majority denomination in Norway (and Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Germany) is Lutheran.

I wasn't aware that Batman had been specifically identified as Catholic too. It's starting to seem that RC's are significantly OVER-represented in the DC superhero set.

As for Dick Grayson, if he still has his Romany background, they have a wonky flavor of Christianity that is all their own.

Religion has been conspicuous by its absence from the Super-books from the get-go, probably because Siegel and Schuster were both Jewish (and knew better than to try to give Supes that affiliation!).

Maven

Not to mention, why would an alien believe in the same fables and religions of man? Especially religions that not too long ago refused to believe that there were other universes out there beside our own...

Grem-Do we expect the Martian Manhunter to be a Christian or Jew. It might make humans feel good, but it is altogether unrealistic.

[Sk8maven]

Not to mention, why would an alien believe in the same fables and religions of man? Especially religions that not too long ago refused to believe that there were other universes out there beside our own...

Grem-Do we expect the Martian Manhunter to be a Christian or Jew. It might make humans feel good, but it is altogether unrealistic.True enough as regards J'Onn J'Onzz. As for Supes, he was raised as a human by humans, and presumably learned whatever faith Jonathan and Martha Kent practiced. But learning that he was an alien from a distant planet may well have shaken that faith....

He still believes in the basic goodness of human/humanoid/sapient nature, though, despite all too many experiences to the contrary.

Maven

[grimston1]

Nothing like a good stereotype of pro-lifers. I know it is a joke. I never tried to equate gay as the polar opposite of pro life. There are Gay Catholics that oppose abortion and capital punishment. I thought the whole idea was diversity. To portray the melting pot that is America and to show what a diverse people we are. But it is hard to do that if the Religious segment is not shown as an important as the Gay lifestyle to readers. Alas, this is one of these issues that we will agree to disagree.


"The trouble with our liberal friends
is not that they're ignorant:
It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

[tcjohnson]

For the not-in-the-know: a lipstick lesbian is supposed to be a "pretty and girly looking" female as opposed to a butch lesbian, who's supposed to be a more manly looking female.



Actually, that is not quite right.

A lipstick lesbian is a slang term for a feminine homosexual woman who is attracted to another feminine woman, rather than a lesbian who is attracted to a more masculine woman, such as in a "butch and femme"-type relationship. The term is thought to have emerged in the early 1990s.

In American films, lesbians are often portrayed according to the lipstick lesbian stereotype, to be both politically safer and more sexually attractive to male viewers. A good example is Showtime's television series The L Word, which presents most of its major lesbian characters in this way.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_lesbian

[Your Rock God]

There's really nothing that iterests me abouth this character yet but then again, there's so few information.

[Paul_King]

Actually, that is not quite right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_lesbian
Goodness sakes, I was close enough! ;)

-Paul

[Paul_King]

For that last, see JSA #62(?) - the start of the "Redemption Lost" arc. The same arc "outed" Dr. Mid-Nite (Pieter Cross) as Roman Catholic - which means he was a minority in his homeland, as the majority denomination in Norway (and Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Germany) is Lutheran.
Maven
I don't remember anywhere it identified Cross as a Catholic.

The differences between Catholic and Lutheran are in Theology (specifically the Aprocopha and Saints/Mother Mary) and not in Sacraments.

Cross went into a House Of Worship to pray showing the importance of Faith to him but didn't necessarily denote denomination. If it has been said somewhere that Cross is specifically Catholic, I stand corrected but he could very well be Lutheran. The necessity of that characterization was to show the importance of Faith to Cross.

As someone who tries to be a man of Faith, that was nice to see someone like myself represented in a Comic Book Character.

I think with that DC isn't afraid to have an abundance of diverse people inhabit their universe. I appreciate Dan and his Editors and Writers (Thank You Geoff Johns and Matt Wagner for Pieter Cross) because they aren't afraid to give a nod to many diversities in their books.

-Paul

[tcjohnson]

Goodness sakes, I was close enough! ;)

-Paul


Yeah well, I only know the difference because I have a lesbian friend who I referred to as a lipstick lesbian in front of her butch girlfriend. She made sure I knew the difference quite vocally. I am savin' you some pain, man!

[bgztl]

"The trouble with our liberal friends
is not that they're ignorant:
It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan


I have noted a general trend towards ideology over pragmatism or--god forbid, -- testable fact in people of of ALL political persuasions.

Conservatives are CONVINCED that evolution and global warming are fantasies.

Liberals are CONVINCED that mutual understanding and re-allocation of economic resources is all that is necessary to resolve conflicts.

Both groups seem determined to ignore the empirical evidence all around them.

My personal conclusion is that most people are too stupid to live. Alas, my own conclusion is proven wrong on a daily basis. I guess they're just too stupid for ME to WNAT to live with them.

Any way you look at it --Not a good quote for me.

You had me up till then.
:zzz:

[Paul_King]

Yeah well, I only know the difference because I have a lesbian friend who I referred to as a lipstick lesbian in front of her butch girlfriend. She made sure I knew the difference quite vocally. I am savin' you some pain, man!
LOL!

Thanks for the head's up, TC. I do have a cronic case of foot-in-mouth disease that flares up often.

Someday remind me to tell you the story about when I told our Church congregation during a Sunday Service that my wife has a tatoo.

-Paul

[imarriedsatanII]

"The trouble with our liberal friends
is not that they're ignorant:
It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan


Bad quote

[imarriedsatanII]

And Mods, can we get a statement or an appearance? Because I know I'm sick to death of religious and political viewpoints in a superhero discussion thread?

[Lion Blade]

I have noted a general trend towards ideology over pragmatism or--god forbid, -- testable fact in people of of ALL political persuasions.

Conservatives are CONVINCED that evolution and global warming are fantasies.

Liberals are CONVINCED that mutual understanding and re-allocation of economic resources is all that is necessary to resolve conflicts.

Both groups seem determined to ignore the empirical evidence all around them.

My personal conclusion is that most people are too stupid to live. Alas, my own conclusion is proven wrong on a daily basis. I guess they're just too stupid for ME to WNAT to live with them.

Any way you look at it --Not a good quote for me.

You had me up till then.
:zzz:

Personally, I don't think there should be political parties at all. This whole concept of Republicans and Democrats as well as of liberal and conservative just brings more prejudice than there already is in the US.

Back to topic, if DC wants to have a lesbian superheroine that bad, then why don't they just use Ice Maiden and put her more in the spotlight? If DC can give Booster Gold a push, then they could give a chance to Ice Maiden as well. Also, as much as I dislike Didio, I will give him just a little more credit in this particular manner as news sources in the US do tend to be very manipulative and distortful in these days.

[James Hunter]

I'm afraid I have no interest in Batwoman at the minute, had it been a new character I possibly would but Kathy Kane holds no appeal to me and I think the Batman family is just getting FAR to big again (I don't what bruce alienating everyone but he can't have every tom, dick or harry in his Bat-family, I know that Kathy sets up during the year Bruce is away but never-the-less I just think the bat-family is running the risk of being to large).

had it been Renee Montoya I would have had far more interest in the character of Batwoman, truth be told. To me, DC need to focus more on the characters they have rather then ressurecrt and revamp old characters who have been out of the limelight.

Just my opinion.

Cheers.

James.

[J-Liv]

And Mods, can we get a statement or an appearance? Because I know I'm sick to death of religious and political viewpoints in a superhero discussion thread?

We prly haven't seen a mod in here because the discussion has remained pretty civil, despite being off topic. I personally would prefer this topic be back on topic, as I would rather discuss the given topic than the topic we've arrived at. However, for what it's worth, I've seen a lot of folks in this thread be a lot more moderate and respectful about the whole topic than I expected them to be. And those people have thusly earned a few extra respect points in my eyes on this day.

-Jason

[Kane_fan]

by JasonLives
I'm sorry, but I don't exactly see how making her a lesbian is "sticking it to" the character. Especially when you consider that, as long as Winick doesn't get his hands on it, it will most likely be a minor plot point.

-Jason Maybe I’m over reacting here, but after the gut punch from DC with Blue Beetle I fear the worse.

If Kathy Kane’s silver age history remains in tact along with the “lesbian” addition, then I could really get on board. I’ll have to wait and see. However, the “Kate” thing seems like a smoke screen to make her appear like a brand new character. Like it or not, DC is going to get backlash when you mess with an established character like Kathy Kane.

I totally disagree with using classic characters to bring about diversity in the DCU. Putting minority characters in establish roles gives them an uphill battle right from the start. Fans of the established characters, like me, would rather see those names in limbo until a good writer can truly commit to making them great again.

52 would’ve been a good starting point for DC to really put some effort into:
1) Introducing (6) NEW characters with minority backgrounds with no ties to established roles.
2) Taking existing minority characters and build them up.

You can’t expect brand new characters to become popular overnight. Just like our classic heroes they have to earn their right to exist. If DC is going to give up on them so easily don’t expect fans not to do the same.

[Drew Melbourne]

I totally disagree with using classic characters to bring about diversity in the DCU. Putting minority characters in establish roles gives them an uphill battle right from the start. Fans of the established characters, like me, would rather see those names in limbo until a good writer can truly commit to making them great again.
It's going to be an uphill battle either way. I don't think DC is particularly worried about upsetting fans of the original Batwoman, considering that she hasn't been in continuity for over two decades and hasn't had a substantial in continuity appearances for closer to forty years.

To most readers, Batwoman will seem like a completely new character or -- at most -- a nod to the eponymous Batman direct-to-DVD movie.

[DEWLine]

It's going to be an uphill battle either way. I don't think DC is particularly worried about upsetting fans of the original Batwoman, considering that she hasn't been in continuity for over two decades and hasn't had a substantial in continuity appearances for closer to forty years.

To most readers, Batwoman will seem like a completely new character or -- at most -- a nod to the eponymous Batman direct-to-DVD movie.

And most people who know of her pre-DVD incarnation will know that her last major appearance was her murder.

I think I'd prefer "similarly named relative of the original" to "reboot entire character's history from scratch".

Come to think of it, what's Bruce's mother's maiden name again...? We've never known much of her side of the family...

[Gremlin]

Well, I just read Didio's interview about the character and I have to say that I am intrigued and interested....and Bette does not seem to have been written out of the realm of possibility. Would be interesting if at some point we got a BatMite for the new millenium...

Grem--still, I don't like her costume...especially the mask.

[Bedlam66]

The Mask is one of the Best Parts you all have no taste.

[imarriedsatanII]

Well, I just read Didio's interview about the character and I have to say that I am intrigued and interested....and Bette does not seem to have been written out of the realm of possibility. Would be interesting if at some point we got a BatMite for the new millenium...

Grem--still, I don't like her costume...especially the mask.


We sorta did over in the pages of Superman/Batman.

[imarriedsatanII]

And most people who know of her pre-DVD incarnation will know that her last major appearance was her murder.

I think I'd prefer "similarly named relative of the original" to "reboot entire character's history from scratch".

Come to think of it, what's Bruce's mother's maiden name again...? We've never known much of her side of the family...


We actually got some background on Bruce's mother during the Baman: Family mini-series.

[DEWLine]

Yep. I've still got my copies of that one, and a good series it was.

Back on point, though...what was Martha's maiden name?

[Erinyes]

I am keeping an open mind about this one. Though I don't like the use of Kate, I like Kathy better.

[alucardbarnivous]

Bah, if it's not Cassandra Caine, then I'm just not interested. This looks to be another "title" that I bought happlilly before IC that I won't be buying post IC. Good job DC.

How is Cassandra related to Batwoman? Because they both start with "Bat" and they're both female?

[imarriedsatanII]

Martha Kane

[alucardbarnivous]

Disappointed by the news of the identity of Batwoman. Once again, it's a result of being a DC newbie...I have no idea who Kathy Kane even is. Since I'm familiar with Renee, I was hoping she'd be Batwoman.

This Batwoman is a retcon, so no prior knowledge needed. However, if you want some background on the Pre-Crisis character, here:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Batwoman/BatwomanHistory.htm

If you want to know about her Post-Crisis niece:

http://www.titanstower.com/source/whoswho/flameb.html

[alucardbarnivous]

The issue isn't that she's a lesbian.

What is this character's raison d'etre? She's a lesbian lover of Montoya's? Okay. So why dress like a bat and fight crime.

It's lame.

The old version was lame too, but if Kathy Kane was in love with Batman, it at least made some modicum of sense.

There needs to be more than what's been reported for this to work.

Maybe they should have just posted the entire script of the issue that describes her origin? lol ;) Come on, isn't this a little premature? Why not give it a chance before lighting the torchs? lol

[alucardbarnivous]

This news pleases me! I like the new DC being more realistic and expanding the races and sexuality of their characters. It's been a long time coming...

Here, here. Although, I do think many mediums (not just comics) have tried to add variety (including the comic industry), I think DC is really using 52 to try and get it to work. Sure, they did projects like Planet DC and Milestone, but it's nice to see they're trying to weave it into the bigger picture on the company. Kudos DC.

[Gremlin]

You know, for my birthday, I received some films about the 1939 World's Fair and I was surprised at how much open nudity there was at the fair. Topless Underwater swimmers, Topless waitresses and faux tableaus. I am surprised by just how today, we are more censored, less open-minded, more racist and homophobic than we were less than 100 years ago--and yet, we constantly lie to ourselves and talk of how open-minded and understanding we are. Just an interesting aside, and a look beyond one of the lies that conservatives love to promote.

Grem-

[alucardbarnivous]

I really do like the fact that Ross blantantly copied the Batman Beyond costume but other than that I'm pretty tired of DC's "silver age kick" and once the fact she's a lesbian is gone and the newness of the character has worn off how poorly will she be written than axed.

Can't say this is half as diverse as Cassandra as Batgirl was at all.

At least Winnick has a new pet project to go on talk shows about.

PS Ross not only riped off BB but this guy as well. (http://comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Page=1&Order=Date&Piece=37401&GSub=4976&GCat=0&UCat=0)

Winick's writing her?!!! Sweet!!! With his work on projects like Terry in Green Lantern and his uber-multiple award winning Pedro and Me though, I would be afraid he'd be tight-cast as the "writer for gay characters". :fro: I'm glad Ross incorporated the Batman Beyond design in as well Augustine (although, why did it seem like you were upset about it in your last sentence?). Bit of a tip of the hat for Bruce Timm, who whole-heartedly deserves it.

[alucardbarnivous]

Maybe I’m over reacting here, but after the gut punch from DC with Blue Beetle I fear the worse.

If Kathy Kane’s silver age history remains in tact along with the “lesbian” addition, then I could really get on board. I’ll have to wait and see. However, the “Kate” thing seems like a smoke screen to make her appear like a brand new character. Like it or not, DC is going to get backlash when you mess with an established character like Kathy Kane.

I totally disagree with using classic characters to bring about diversity in the DCU. Putting minority characters in establish roles gives them an uphill battle right from the start. Fans of the established characters, like me, would rather see those names in limbo until a good writer can truly commit to making them great again.

52 would’ve been a good starting point for DC to really put some effort into:
1) Introducing (6) NEW characters with minority backgrounds with no ties to established roles.
2) Taking existing minority characters and build them up.

You can’t expect brand new characters to become popular overnight. Just like our classic heroes they have to earn their right to exist. If DC is going to give up on them so easily don’t expect fans not to do the same.

Truth be told, you can't expect legacy or re-imagined characters to become popular overnight either (although, time and again it's proven to help).

[alucardbarnivous]

And most people who know of her pre-DVD incarnation will know that her last major appearance was her murder.

I think I'd prefer "similarly named relative of the original" to "reboot entire character's history from scratch".

Come to think of it, what's Bruce's mother's maiden name again...? We've never known much of her side of the family...

Her whole history was rebooted by Crisis anyway IIRC (except, I think post-Crisis it was said Bronze Tiger still killed her, which obviously seems to be SBP punched away lol). If anything, DC's trying to do something with a character that really has had no history since COIE.

[alucardbarnivous]

Well, I just read Didio's interview about the character and I have to say that I am intrigued and interested....and Bette does not seem to have been written out of the realm of possibility. Would be interesting if at some point we got a BatMite for the new millenium...

Grem--still, I don't like her costume...especially the mask.

Superman/Batman SPOILERS
Actually, Batmite is back ala Loeb's final S/B arc

[B_n_L]

You know, for my birthday, I received some films about the 1939 World's Fair and I was surprised at how much open nudity there was at the fair. Topless Underwater swimmers, Topless waitresses and faux tableaus. I am surprised by just how today, we are more censored, less open-minded, more racist and homophobic than we were less than 100 years ago--and yet, we constantly lie to ourselves and talk of how open-minded and understanding we are. Just an interesting aside, and a look beyond one of the lies that conservatives love to promote.

Grem-

I don't think that's entirely true. If people seemed less racist or homophobic 70 years ago, it's probably because it wasn't something that was openly discussed, so it didn't have the same publicity it does today. The prejudices remained hidden, but because we can publicly discuss these issues now, it sheds a light on peoples' bigotry. On the plus side, our ability to have open discussions has helped over the years to open minds on these topics as well.

As for casual nudity like you described, sex in general wasn't discussed, unless it was to demonize it and to tell people how dirty it was and generally discourage people from exploring that side of themselves. So nudity like you describe might be more likely to be accepted as innocent or artistic, while today, because people discuss sexuality more openly and honestly (making it appear more "threatening" and close to home), it's more likely to be called dirty or pornographic. It might not be a utopia now, but at least we are able to have this kind of discussion now, whereas in 1939, it would be pretty much unheard of in any kind of public forum.

[Bedlam66]

Superman/Batman SPOILERS
Actually, Batmite is back ala Loeb's final S/B arc

And about da mn time too.

[Astro@work]

Late to the thread, but just had to add my two cents:
-thrilled that Batwoman is coming back as Kathy Kane ("Kate" is going to take some getting used to!)
-Applaud DC for consciously trying to diversify it's universe. Everybody should have a hero to read about. DC was seriously behind the competition on a diverse population, including behind Marvel on most counts. While the move to diversify might seem a little heavy-handed because it is happening all at once, the move was long overdue
-There is a certain irony in the fact that Kathy Kane was introduced all those years ago to dispell the rumors that Bruce was gay. Now she is being reintroduced herself as a lesbian character. Gotta love that one.

[theodore_kord]

Dan Didio's DC is starting to read like a fan boy's porn scribblings....

Grem--Somebody, please stop reading Dan Camille Paglia before bedtime.


"The Red Tornado Shoe Diaries?"

"Emanuelle in Metropolis?"

I think it's Skinemax you should be watching out for...

[gothamite]

You know, for my birthday, I received some films about the 1939 World's Fair and I was surprised at how much open nudity there was at the fair. Topless Underwater swimmers, Topless waitresses and faux tableaus. I am surprised by just how today, we are more censored, less open-minded, more racist and homophobic than we were less than 100 years ago--and yet, we constantly lie to ourselves and talk of how open-minded and understanding we are. Just an interesting aside, and a look beyond one of the lies that conservatives love to promote.

We're not "more racist and homophobic" now than we were then. We just talk about it now, when it was an understood fact of life in those days.

I will agree that our attitudes toward sex are very goofy. It's not just conservatives, or liberals - too many Americans of all stripes want to child-proof the world.

In 1939, it was understood that there is a world for adults, that doesn't have to be fit for kids. Today, we have lost that distinction. And with it we have lost something important - the right for adults to be adults.

[Mr Prince]

The proof will be in the stories they tell, the predicaments that Kate finds herself in, the actions she takes or the comments she makes. How her actions, thoughts and comments could be influenced by the adjectives that surround her could be interesting--just as they are for any character. Moreso, what sounds interesting is her relationship ties to Renee, as well as Bruce Wayne and the Gotham elite set.

I applaud DC for putting another unique pov into the DCU that should be there--all the better it's a re-vamp of a historical character. I'm completely intrigued by the secret-within-a-secret aspect of the storytelling as a being closeted or choosing who to come out to, has a been a right of passage for every gay person. That playing off the secret identity aspect of a hero, is fun enough right there.

I look forward to reading 52 and seeing how they invest in her and how compelling her drama is.

All the best...

Scott

[ChastMastr]

why is it always a lipstick lesbian in comics? when are we going to have non-lipstick lesbians with dennis Eckersley haircuts?

There's Maggie Sawyer...

I feel like DC is tying to be an advocate. How many gay characters in the DC universe? Montoya, Maggie Sawyer, Piper from flash, Terry -G.L. Kyle's gopher.
... er... that's hardly all that many...

One thing that I think is funny is that when I read some responses...I don't think people even knows what lipstick lesbian means.
Yes, though it would be nice to see the more butch kind as well, other than Maggie Sawyer.

I'd like to see some more gay male heroes who are actually, well, also butch.

Grem- I can't say that I actually trust DC to give us honest portrayals of LGTB characters...
Well, there are some LGTB comics writers and artists whose work is excellent...

Although, I have to say, who in Gotham isn't a socialite?

The Joker.

Does anyone else think that this Batwoman is going to share the same fate as the original?

What, meet the Bruce Wayne of an alternate universe and be really creeped out about it? (Well, you said "the original"...) ;)

I'm looking forward to this new character myself.

David

[grimston1]

Batwoman news has hit across the pond. Drudge Report has the BBC link on his site.
http://www.drudgereport.com/

The BBC link is: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5030518.stm

The "lipstick lesbian" term is used so it may have used part of the NYT story.

[ShazamsChampion]

I don't mean any offense, but if you believe that, it's probably because that's just what you want to see, because there's no way there are more openly gay characters in mainstream comics than openly Christian characters. Granted, we may not see declarations of their devotion to God in every issue, but there are still lots of Christians in comics who are open about their religion, like Black Lightning and Nightcrawler.

B_N_L, If this Batwoman were never to date a woman, never to Kiss a woman, never express attraction for another woman, and were seen to go into a chippendales with the BOP, would you still feel she was representing Homosexuals?
If in other words she were to glaim that she were gay, yet not livce or act in a way which was consistant with that statement, would you really consider her gay?

I am not saying I agree with Icemans statement, as my understanding is that in the DCU some flavor of christianity is the asumed norm, however If they are never seen acting in accordance with a christian lifestlye then how do they truly represent christians?

If the huntress never actually attends Church, then who is to say that the large cross she wears is no more than an indication she is a fan of early Madonna?

I don't really understand Christians, I have never had faith in much beyond myself and what I can cath in my teeth, But I do know know that those who self identify as Christians, for the most part, share certain behaviors, chief among them regular worship. Those who claim to be christians, but dont actually act in that manner, are always people I associate with a lack of real religous faith. That isn't to say all those who don't go to church don't have faith, but that many seem to identify them selves as christians only reflexivly. They asssume they are because they were raised that way but give religon no more thought and effort than they do Byzantine Numismatics. Most DC characters seem to fall into this category at best.

Given that minority charcters are becomming somewhat more common, though by no means a large trend in the overall sense, I can understand why some christians may feel that they are being porportionally more underrepresented than homosexuals. Is it true?
Well of course/not, for a given value of truth.





You're right that it wouldn't hurt to see things like that more often (except Batman going to church, I get the sense that he's lapsed). I still don't think we see more of the "gay lifestyle" than Christianity overall though.[/QUOTE]

[Lion Blade]

B_N_L, If this Batwoman were never to date a woman, never to Kiss a woman, never express attraction for another woman, and were seen to go into a chippendales with the BOP, would you still feel she was representing Homosexuals?
If in other words she were to glaim that she were gay, yet not livce or act in a way which was consistant with that statement, would you really consider her gay?

I am not saying I agree with Icemans statement, as my understanding is that in the DCU some flavor of christianity is the asumed norm, however If they are never seen acting in accordance with a christian lifestlye then how do they truly represent christians?

If the huntress never actually attends Church, then who is to say that the large cross she wears is no more than an indication she is a fan of early Madonna?

I don't really understand Christians, I have never had faith in much beyond myself and what I can cath in my teeth, But I do know know that those who self identify as Christians, for the most part, share certain behaviors, chief among them regular worship. Those who claim to be christians, but dont actually act in that manner, are always people I associate with a lack of real religous faith. That isn't to say all those who don't go to church don't have faith, but that many seem to identify them selves as christians only reflexivly. They asssume they are because they were raised that way but give religon no more thought and effort than they do Byzantine Numismatics. Most DC characters seem to fall into this category at best.

Given that minority charcters are becomming somewhat more common, though by no means a large trend in the overall sense, I can understand why some christians may feel that they are being porportionally more underrepresented than homosexuals. Is it true?
Well of course/not, for a given value of truth.





You're right that it wouldn't hurt to see things like that more often (except Batman going to church, I get the sense that he's lapsed). I still don't think we see more of the "gay lifestyle" than Christianity overall though.

There's also the issue that people tend to get offended more by religion than by anything else in these days.

[ShazamsChampion]

There's also the issue that people tend to get offended more by religion than by anything else in these days.

Both by its presence and any lack thereof.

[B_n_L]

B_N_L, If this Batwoman were never to date a woman, never to Kiss a woman, never express attraction for another woman, and were seen to go into a chippendales with the BOP, would you still feel she was representing Homosexuals?
If in other words she were to glaim that she were gay, yet not livce or act in a way which was consistant with that statement, would you really consider her gay?

Well, switch the female pronouns for male ones, and you've got a pretty good description of comics most famous gay character, Northstar. Goes to show the quality of gay representation in this medium. :0P But also, it's not a fair comparison. We don't really see gay characters (in any medium, unless it's non-mainstream) dating or showing attraction to people of the same sex with the same degree of transparency as straight characters. Still, if we're told the character is gay, they're gay. They may not show the character doing anything "gay," but they typically won't show the character doing anything "not gay" either. It's black and white. Homosexuality is the exlcusive attraction to the same sex. Simple.

On the otherhand, religion is a whole different ball game. There are tons of different denominations of Christianity for a reason; because people have different ways of interpreting the bible, and there are just as many ways to worship as there are people who worship. What's seen as a completely wrong way to worship to one person is totally normal to another.

I am not saying I agree with Icemans statement, as my understanding is that in the DCU some flavor of christianity is the asumed norm, however If they are never seen acting in accordance with a christian lifestlye then how do they truly represent christians?

But how does one act in accordance with the "Christian lifestyle"? The "Christian lifestyle" (just like the dreaded "gay lifestyle) is up for interpretation. It's not one thing or another, because not everyone lives their lives the same way. Besides, they're Christians, not Christ himself. it would be impossible for anyone to live up to such a standard at all times. People have different codes of ethics, they make mistakes and bad decisions, etc. That doesn't mean they aren't "good Christians" across the board.

[ChastMastr]

But how does one act in accordance with the "Christian lifestyle"? The "Christian lifestyle" (just like the dreaded "gay lifestyle) is up for interpretation.
Not to mention the "gay Christian lifestyle." Which, since Todd Rice/Obsidian was a fairly devout Roman Catholic in Infinity Inc., might be an interesting avenue to see with his character (is he a member of Dignity, etc.?).

David

[Paul_King]

But I do know know that those who self identify as Christians, for the most part, share certain behaviors, chief among them regular worship.
Just to point this out:

Dr. Mid-Nite was shown to attend Worship in JSA.

This is why I'd never call foul on DC.

They have done a fair job of representing all diversities in their comics.

DC having Mid-Nite (a Christian) and Terrific (an Atheist) interact in a fair and balanced way and their (DC's) fearlessness (see Obsidian and now Batwoman) to show all the beauty of individuality in the world.

I think DC is also doing well at letting these diversities be PART of the character and not the totality of the character (like in real life) and not being afraid to show all sides of a character.

Just my impressions, though.

-Paul

[ShazamsChampion]

Well, switch the female pronouns for male ones, and you've got a pretty good description of comics most famous gay character, Northstar. Goes to show the quality of gay representation in this medium. :0P But also, it's not a fair comparison. We don't really see gay characters (in any medium, unless it's non-mainstream) dating or showing attraction to people of the same sex with the same degree of transparency as straight characters. Still, if we're told the character is gay, they're gay. They may not show the character doing anything "gay," but they typically won't show the character doing anything "not gay" either. It's black and white. Homosexuality is the exlcusive attraction to the same sex. Simple.

Thats my point though, I would no more consider northstar (from what you say) a fair representation of a homoseual character, than I would superman a fair representation of a christian character. Many claim hes a methodist but from his portrayl I would consider him more of an agnostic humanist.

On the otherhand, religion is a whole different ball game. There are tons of different denominations of Christianity for a reason; because people have different ways of interpreting the bible, and there are just as many ways to worship as there are people who worship. What's seen as a completely wrong way to worship to one person is totally normal to another.
To some extent, and there are doctrinal differences between denominations, but whether the church has a cross or not, has the sacrement or not, has confession or not, most christians do attend at least semi reular worship, especially in rural areas , yet we see as littlle representation of that in comics despite the fact that christians who attend worship are a far larger segment of americans than homosexuals or bisexuals.
Again, I understand why these characters aren't shown worshipping more often, as it would take up valuable page space without in most cases advancing the story. Clark and Lois go to church and nothing happens isn't much of a panel or page. Batman however who is an avowed athiest, mentions that often, and it is an integral part of his character. I love that about im, that he can work with Zauriel and not belive in god, to me, is part of the characters charm. But in fairness the number of nominally religous characters, of all religons, not just christianity, (how often have we seen Ragman at a synangogue?) never even seem to mention what I imagine must be strong convictions. One of the reasons I like Geoff's witing as much as I do is the reverence and respect he treats faith with, without seeming to actually push in on anyone.

But how does one act in accordance with the "Christian lifestyle"? The "Christian lifestyle" (just like the dreaded "gay lifestyle) is up for interpretation. It's not one thing or another, because not everyone lives their lives the same way. Besides, they're Christians, not Christ himself. it would be impossible for anyone to live up to such a standard at all times. People have different codes of ethics, they make mistakes and bad decisions, etc. That doesn't mean they aren't "good Christians" across the board.

Well I imagine a gay lifestlye would mean acting gay, IE dating and having sex with those of the same sex, by the same standard, a christian lifestlye would be one who atternds church, attempts to lead a christian life, and looks to the bible and teachings of jesus for guidance.

[ShazamsChampion]

Not to mention the "gay Christian lifestyle." Which, since Todd Rice/Obsidian was a fairly devout Roman Catholic in Infinity Inc., might be an interesting avenue to see with his character (is he a member of Dignity, etc.?).

David
I would very much like to see that explored. The potential for conflict, both within himself and his church, how he finds a way to honor both his beliefs and himself. That would be an obsidian arc I would buy.

[ShazamsChampion]

Just to point this out:

Dr. Mid-Nite was shown to attend Worship in JSA.

This is why I'd never call foul on DC.

They have done a fair job of representing all diversities in their comics.

DC having Mid-Nite (a Christian) and Terrific (an Atheist) interact in a fair and balanced way and their (DC's) fearlessness (see Obsidian and now Batwoman) to show all the beauty of individuality in the world.

I think DC is also doing well at letting these diversities be PART of the character and not the totality of the character (like in real life) and not being afraid to show all sides of a character.

Just my impressions, though.

-Paul


Absolutley, If anything I think Geoffs treatment of the issue in JSA is the way it should be handled, both charcters stayed true to thier beliefs without denigrating either. Mr T didn't refer to Doc Midnite as a "gullible fools who believes in fictional books and imaginary men in the sky" and Doc didn't call Mr T a "godless heathen secular humanist hellbent on dragging humanity into a cesspool of immorality"
I wish more religous themed conversations could go that way in the real world.

[Ravenwing263]

Absolutley, If anything I think Geoffs treatment of the issue in JSA is the way it should be handled, both charcters stayed true to thier beliefs without denigrating either. Mr T didn't refer to Doc Midnite as a "gullible fools who believes in fictional books and imaginary men in the sky" and Doc didn't call Mr T a "godless heathen secular humanist hellbent on dragging humanity into a cesspool of immorality"
I wish more religous themed conversations could go that way in the real world.

Wait, "secular humanist" is a bad phrase now?